An alternative sepoy/india change
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Sigh.
Flash news l: after 2-3 free shots musk get in range anyway
Flash news l: after 2-3 free shots musk get in range anyway
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
You said xbow counter musks. Now you want to say that musks killing elite forest prowlers?:D
Quite strange...
Quite strange...
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
https://clips.twitch.tv/SnappySeductivePigStinkyCheese garja u keep complaining about this clip
You have 30 FP, 18 MR: About 6500 res
70 Sepoys/Muskets (was maybe even more): About 8400 res
And we are not even calculating those 4 mahouts here. Why skirm+goon is somehow assumed to always win other combos and if it doesn't happen its unfair?
If musket is so "op", why we NEVER see french/porto/spain doing Age 3 musks??
You have 30 FP, 18 MR: About 6500 res
70 Sepoys/Muskets (was maybe even more): About 8400 res
And we are not even calculating those 4 mahouts here. Why skirm+goon is somehow assumed to always win other combos and if it doesn't happen its unfair?
If musket is so "op", why we NEVER see french/porto/spain doing Age 3 musks??
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
But involved in the fight are not 70 sepoys vs 30 forest prowlers, it's roughly 1 on 1. the mahouts come, when the FP are already quite decimated. Ofc, the situation is, that sepoy are in shooting range and the FP cannot use their range advantage.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
somppukunkku wrote:https://clips.twitch.tv/SnappySeductivePigStinkyCheese garja u keep complaining about this clip
You have 30 FP, 18 MR: About 6500 res
70 Sepoys/Muskets (was maybe even more): About 8400 res
And we are not even calculating those 4 mahouts here. Why skirm+goon is somehow assumed to always win other combos and if it doesn't happen its unfair?
If musket is so "op", why we NEVER see french/porto/spain doing Age 3 musks??
Yes, and I'd argue that he would have won the fight if those mahouts didnt come him, despite actually having god aweful micro.
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
And even secondly, musket type unit/heavy melee infantry and "supposed" to beat cavalry, including goons. Dragoons are meant to beat heavy melee cavalry.
If you have over 50% of your army cavalry and I have pure anti-cavalry, isn't my combo infact better?
If you have over 50% of your army cavalry and I have pure anti-cavalry, isn't my combo infact better?
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Jerom wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.
What about, maybe in some mus spain would go greedy and send it, and in some others spain would still go aggro ff? So it brings variety, which doesn't necessarily mean it changes the identity of the civ...
Or then, I could also argue that nerfing uhlans changes the identity of germany because you can't z-move uhlans anymore. Or that giving Sioux an eco option changes their identity. It just doesn't look like the right way to take the problem.
The problem with that card is just that in match-ups where spain can afford to send it, it's probably gonna be too strong. Also that it's a new mechanic, meaning that we don't really know how hard it might be abused (which doesn't mean it can't be tried, though).
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
I've been thinking about it and the actual problem is that the meta shifted due to the maps towards being more greedy, greedy to the point where all civs exhaust all their eco options and then at that point the meta gets stale so EP has been trying to give civs even more eco options. But in the end you're just in a loop and you'll never fix the core problem.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Jerom wrote:I've been thinking about it and the actual problem is that the meta shifted due to the maps towards being more greedy, greedy to the point where all civs exhaust all their eco options and then at that point the meta gets stale so EP has been trying to give civs even more eco options. But in the end you're just in a loop and you'll never fix the core problem.
Yes, that is why it is so important to have a divers map pool. Compared to the original RE maps, I think that the map team did a very good job already. Again, it is difficult to determine when a map pool is balanced. But when I think of the last tournaments, it seems that there is a lot of playstyle diversity (more than on RE). You don't want maps to be rush-only. Maps + age-up costs are as important as civ-design when it comes to meta-shifts.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
On the clip thing, seriously, let's get it over. Those were 30-40max nerfed sepoy vs about 30 FPs (with combat card, dunno about cards on sepoy) and about 20 musket riders. It's unfair in the first place the claim to crawl forward with the wrong unit. Please note that vs high HP units like sepoy or jans the WC crackshot is rather useless.
Mahouts came when fight was already over and MR in combination with skirms are useful because theycan tank shots if necessary. Also note that at that point in the game you had lost like 15 vills to raids and just wasted lot of units prior to that battle.
Anyway that's just an example. It comes in handy because you clipped it and it came out at the right time. But stuff like this happens all the time even with ashi or jans but to a lesser extent. For ashi is mostly because of the broken speed, for jans is just the billion HPs. But at least those units have somewhat drawbacks (current ashi stats are more or less legit for the cost and jan attack is almost laughable). Sepoy is just too good all around to the point that players go for it in fortress despite having more logical combos.
Mahouts came when fight was already over and MR in combination with skirms are useful because theycan tank shots if necessary. Also note that at that point in the game you had lost like 15 vills to raids and just wasted lot of units prior to that battle.
Anyway that's just an example. It comes in handy because you clipped it and it came out at the right time. But stuff like this happens all the time even with ashi or jans but to a lesser extent. For ashi is mostly because of the broken speed, for jans is just the billion HPs. But at least those units have somewhat drawbacks (current ashi stats are more or less legit for the cost and jan attack is almost laughable). Sepoy is just too good all around to the point that players go for it in fortress despite having more logical combos.
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Firstly, those were non-nerfed sepoy
Secondly, if count 30 sepoys in that fight you need glasses
Thirdly, wtf is then "not wrong unit combo" vs skirm-goon? Except skirm-goon???
Secondly, if count 30 sepoys in that fight you need glasses
Thirdly, wtf is then "not wrong unit combo" vs skirm-goon? Except skirm-goon???
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Kaiserklein wrote:Jerom wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.
What about, maybe in some mus spain would go greedy and send it, and in some others spain would still go aggro ff? So it brings variety, which doesn't necessarily mean it changes the identity of the civ...
Or then, I could also argue that nerfing uhlans changes the identity of germany because you can't z-move uhlans anymore. Or that giving Sioux an eco option changes their identity. It just doesn't look like the right way to take the problem.
The problem with that card is just that in match-ups where spain can afford to send it, it's probably gonna be too strong. Also that it's a new mechanic, meaning that we don't really know how hard it might be abused (which doesn't mean it can't be tried, though).
Well thats the thing, it changes the game too much, germany are a cav civ and therefore their cav shouldnt just be xp for the opponent, and to compensate with a 10hp dopp buff is useless, then they try to give sioux economic options when the civ isnt designed that way at all , and trying to give spain an economic way that revamps the entire civ is just changing the game too
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Kaiserklein wrote:Jerom wrote:About spanish gold: Like I said before, it's not an option to spain after their normal opening. Its a shipment that, if it turns out to be viable, just changes how spain is played. The problem with it is that it limits build order space in the sense that if you want this to be part of your build order, there is almost no situation where you don't want it to be shipped asap. It would seem kinda silly if that becomes how you play spain, as it just completely changes the identity of spain. Something like a 7-8 vill shipment that you could ship after your initial push or something would be much more in the spirit of spain.
What about, maybe in some mus spain would go greedy and send it, and in some others spain would still go aggro ff? So it brings variety, which doesn't necessarily mean it changes the identity of the civ...
Or then, I could also argue that nerfing uhlans changes the identity of germany because you can't z-move uhlans anymore. Or that giving Sioux an eco option changes their identity. It just doesn't look like the right way to take the problem.
The problem with that card is just that in match-ups where spain can afford to send it, it's probably gonna be too strong. Also that it's a new mechanic, meaning that we don't really know how hard it might be abused (which doesn't mean it can't be tried, though).
Basically what hazza said, I don't like the german or sioux changes either.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
somppukunkku wrote:Firstly, those were non-nerfed sepoy
Secondly, if count 30 sepoys in that fight you need glasses
Thirdly, wtf is then "not wrong unit combo" vs skirm-goon? Except skirm-goon???
At 51s left it is not more than 40 sepoy and redcoats, roughly the same amount of skirms I have.
Not wrong combo would be anything that actually counters skirms like sepoy + a decent number of mahouts or gurkha-sowar or even sepoy sowar if in superior number. I would be fine even with gurkha sepoy which is aboutnthe same of skirm-goon but pure musks is just rerarded.
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
If you can't beat sepoys with FP it's basically ur bad micro...
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
the use of "spanish gold" (in theory):
standard FF, skip 5v
3v-700g-700w-spanish gold-(2 cannon)-1000w-unction
train skirm+goon and stay at home in early age 3, do a timing push at around 13:00
spanish gold can pay off after 3 shipments, and unction after you have 50+ units can be insane. thus, spain can play late game with any other civ imo.
1000w after spanish gold=artilery foundry+1 cannon+600w left (second TC? church+10 missionaries?)
spanish gold-1000w-unction combo may become a new meta imo.
standard FF, skip 5v
3v-700g-700w-spanish gold-(2 cannon)-1000w-unction
train skirm+goon and stay at home in early age 3, do a timing push at around 13:00
spanish gold can pay off after 3 shipments, and unction after you have 50+ units can be insane. thus, spain can play late game with any other civ imo.
1000w after spanish gold=artilery foundry+1 cannon+600w left (second TC? church+10 missionaries?)
spanish gold-1000w-unction combo may become a new meta imo.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
how to beat sepoy with FP 100%:
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....
Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....
Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
fei123456 wrote:the use of "spanish gold" (in theory):
standard FF, skip 5v
3v-700g-700w-spanish gold-(2 cannon)-1000w-unction
train skirm+goon and stay at home in early age 3, do a timing push at around 13:00
spanish gold can pay off after 3 shipments, and unction after you have 50+ units can be insane. thus, spain can play late game with any other civ imo.
1000w after spanish gold=artilery foundry+1 cannon+600w left (second TC? church+10 missionaries?)
spanish gold-1000w-unction combo may become a new meta imo.
Skip 700w instead imo, you don't need to get the infrastructure going that quickly because you're not shipping units yet and dont need to be aggressive quickly.
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
fei123456 wrote:how to beat sepoy with FP 100%:
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....
Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can
You can't attack with stealthed units
Anyway, if FPs are kiting and attacking their total speed will be less than 4, while sepoys can just keep walking with 4 speed until they catch up, then FP cannot run anymore. When they catch up they trade quite well despite the fact that FPs should hard counter them.
D.Sepoy attack: 30
D.Sepoy hp (with brit cons): 250
Carded FP attack: 22x2=44
Carded FP ranged HP = 220
FP kills sepoy in 6 hits
Sepoy kills FP in 8 hits
Considering that there is a lot of overkill these numbers end up not mattering that much though, the two sides end up picking off 2-3 enemy units per volley. I think Garja would have won the fight in the end if the mahouts didn't come, but it was still a very decent trade for somppu and I don't think Garja's micro was bad. It's just that massed tanky units (halberdiers as well for example) can afford to run towards the enemy army even if they should be countered, because once they are in range they can trade well (see musk vs xbow in age2).
In my opinion sepoys were a really strong unit and even after the nerf they are very respectable.
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Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
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Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Wow , such an interesting approach to kiting. The chinese and japanese (and similar countries like malaysia etc , dont sue me if i missed ur country name) players never cease to amaze me.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
Regarding skirm/fp vs sepoy.
They are still somewhat cost effective when both in range.
If able ti kite with help of snaring by explorer or sacrificial cav. Then do very good.
Instead of combat card for skirm. If you expect to fight musket units (india, otto maybe Japan) then CIR is much better. (consider 60 attack instead of 44 in above example. 4 hits for age3 sepoy. 5hit for age3 sepoy +british consulate.)
FP have access through new ways card. This is not part of standard play. But all options should be explored before nerfing.
They are still somewhat cost effective when both in range.
If able ti kite with help of snaring by explorer or sacrificial cav. Then do very good.
Instead of combat card for skirm. If you expect to fight musket units (india, otto maybe Japan) then CIR is much better. (consider 60 attack instead of 44 in above example. 4 hits for age3 sepoy. 5hit for age3 sepoy +british consulate.)
FP have access through new ways card. This is not part of standard play. But all options should be explored before nerfing.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
fei123456 wrote:how to beat sepoy with FP 100%:
imagine a 40FP vs 50sepoy fight
put a FP into stealth-kite with 39 FP-when sepoy goes near, use the stealth FP to snare with melee attack-put a FP into stealth-kite with 38 FP.....
Anyway I can't do this, but the ESOC gods can
I remember trying this and feeling like forest prowlers don't actually snare in melee so it's useless.
oranges.
Re: An alternative sepoy/india change
There is one more alternative way of nerfing sepoy-
Originally sepoy had ranged multiplier vs cav.
Ranged attack could be nerfed from 25 to 23. With 15%(1.15x) ranged multiplier vs cav. That is 26 vs cavalry.
This should correct the case of sepoy being too good against counter units.
Originally sepoy had ranged multiplier vs cav.
Ranged attack could be nerfed from 25 to 23. With 15%(1.15x) ranged multiplier vs cav. That is 26 vs cavalry.
This should correct the case of sepoy being too good against counter units.
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