so litte sioux play in this tournament

Netherlands momuuu
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by momuuu »

Well, I obviously just don't think the path of nerfing the bow riders will ever get sioux in a good position. That's the thing that makes me hate the civ. Maybe others agree.
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Sweden deadrising78
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by deadrising78 »

@spanky4ever if u want to see sioux, check my games published here. Its at least 1 sioux game per tourney at captain/major level
France Kaiserklein
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by Kaiserklein »

bwinner1 wrote:Just play one sioux next round and ez 50$ for you honnestly

Shhh

Jerom wrote:Probably because Sioux feels limiting. In age 2 you just don't have much choice. Cetans and War clubs are just garbage and Sioux just isn't strong enough to use those sort of units as core units. Bow riders are underwhelming to use as a core unit, so you're stuck to making axe riders really. But people know that, so they mass musks and timing push you. You can basically mostly do an Axe rider semi FF or just do a straight FF and hope you survive. At least, thats how sioux feels like to me. It just feels limited, boring. Surely in essence they're a fun civ - I personally do like them more with viable bow riders - but whenever I play them on EP I just feel like I'm limiting myself and get bored super quickly. Making units in age 2 just feels sad because nothing is effective, and then you're quickly narrowed down to a very precise path in every match up, and then you start wondering why you're not playing another civ.

Holding timings with teepees is actually surpringly easy now. Cetans can't hit and run, but when they sit in teepees, they're really good. Same goes for BRs (and they're anyway good even without teepees). And because you get that eco boost, making teepees doesn't slow you down. With the 5v card, you also don't have a bad eco at all. And you can age fast to fortress and spam those really strong unit shipments.
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

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Post by lordraphael »

sioux is in a good position. cetan bows arent even bad now. And the teepes just help sioux a lot. The question in tourney games is just if there isnt a civ that youre far more comfortable with or that performs better as a first pick or a counter pick than sioux. Usually its the second and if it isnt theres a civ youre experienced more than with sioux
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
Australia Hazza54321
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by Hazza54321 »

problem is dutch brit fre port are the top civs which all counter sioux
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Italy Garja
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by Garja »

Sioux is the top civ on the current patch. Aside from those heavy water maps where they might not be the best (or you just want to take advantage of them on other land maps) they pretty much beat every civ.
Sioux now have decent eco + good unit (unique strong units, rather upgradable, 25% elite up 4 unit combo in colonial) + very good tempo/flexibility (400w, messenger age up, good unit/crates shipments, no houses).
Sioux do beat brits, rather easily I'd say. Even on no TP maps just teepees + infantry contain isn't easy for brits.
They can beat the classic FF civs by just doing the same but with better units and now comparable eco.
In most cases just wakina+axe is enough in the very same fashion ulhan+skirms used to rape everything. When that's not enough can simply add BRs (still pretty legit unit) and exploit other OP stuff like the dog BB or fertiloty dance for 2/3 TC boom. No houses + teepees makes their eco on pretty much the same level of French/Germans which is far from being bad. I'm pretty sure a very standard stagecoach + carded teepee semi can easily match the same eco of a 5 bank Dutch semi.
They are not rushable anymore because of teepees (and they weren't even before tbh with so many good unit shipments + no houses + War chief and pets). They can be outscaled in the long run by civs like Aztec and Russia but they can strike hard before that happens.
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by spanky4ever »

Garja wrote:Sioux is the top civ on the current patch. Aside from those heavy water maps where they might not be the best (or you just want to take advantage of them on other land maps) they pretty much beat every civ.
Sioux now have decent eco + good unit (unique strong units, rather upgradable, 25% elite up 4 unit combo in colonial) + very good tempo/flexibility (400w, messenger age up, good unit/crates shipments, no houses).
Sioux do beat brits, rather easily I'd say. Even on no TP maps just teepees + infantry contain isn't easy for brits.
They can beat the classic FF civs by just doing the same but with better units and now comparable eco.
In most cases just wakina+axe is enough in the very same fashion ulhan+skirms used to rape everything. When that's not enough can simply add BRs (still pretty legit unit) and exploit other OP stuff like the dog BB or fertiloty dance for 2/3 TC boom. No houses + teepees makes their eco on pretty much the same level of French/Germans which is far from being bad. I'm pretty sure a very standard stagecoach + carded teepee semi can easily match the same eco of a 5 bank Dutch semi.
They are not rushable anymore because of teepees (and they weren't even before tbh with so many good unit shipments + no houses + War chief and pets). They can be outscaled in the long run by civs like Aztec and Russia but they can strike hard before that happens.

still :cry:
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by fei123456 »

Garja wrote:I'm pretty sure a very standard stagecoach + carded teepee semi can easily match the same eco of a 5 bank Dutch semi.

Dutch is still a hard mu for sioux, as dutch actually has better units. Skirm>wakina and sioux doesn't have 13 jaegers.
Axe rider perform badly against goon-type units (20% rr, deal only 75% damage to ranged cavs), while dutch always has tons of ruyters. (And blackriders lol)
Dutch can also train 5-10 pikes to siege your TPs early, without delaying their bank boom semiff too much.

I'd prefer some colo pressure (ar+br or sth else) before age 3, trying to hurt dutch a bit and force them to stay in age 2 for a while.
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China fei123456
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by fei123456 »

Jerom wrote:Probably because Sioux feels limiting. In age 2 you just don't have much choice. Cetans and War clubs are just garbage and Sioux just isn't strong enough to use those sort of units as core units. Bow riders are underwhelming to use as a core unit, so you're stuck to making axe riders really. But people know that, so they mass musks and timing push you.

Cetan bow beats musks easily in this version. You can even send "friendly territory" to make them even more scary.
I even beat some russia/aztec rush with cetan/club/cav anti-push.
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by jesus3 »

Gendarme wrote:I am pretty drunk, but I thought this thread was pretty cute and funny. Lol Spanky!


skĂĄl :flowers: same and prost ffs
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by deleted_user »

The emergence of a fun-to-play, good Sioux is like 25% of the reason I play on EP. The more trading posts the better.
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by gibson »

deleted_user wrote:The emergence of a fun-to-play, good Sioux is like 25% of the reason I play on EP. The more trading posts the better.
why didnt you play good hub gamesh with us bitch
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by deleted_user »

gibson wrote:
deleted_user wrote:The emergence of a fun-to-play, good Sioux is like 25% of the reason I play on EP. The more trading posts the better.
why didnt you play good hub gamesh with us bitch

I took a 5 hour nap
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by spanky4ever »

Garja said :
Sioux is the top civ on the current patch. Aside from those heavy water maps where they might not be the best (or you just want to take advantage of them on other land maps) they pretty much beat every civ.

I ask:
just want to know then, being so op, who dont you play them, or Aizamk? who are really familiar to the nilla, twc, and asiena maps?


I cannot belive such a statement, from a really good player, Being familiar to the maps-------And really good players from nilla and the 2 pathes = and zero sioux.
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by deleted_user »

Sioux only recently became a great civ. It spent its other 7 years being a one trick pony, or something like that. Top players have played probably thousands of games with their most preferred civs. They've been in every possible situation several times over with them. Those little nuances and intuitions carry over through all the years. It's play time, familiarity and comfort which can't be reproduced in the few months since EP's last update.

With civ balance so close now, when a player is forced to choose between two civs of similar strength, a player will choose the one they are more familiar with barring immediate map and match up considerations.

You're asking to undo nearly a decade of bred mannerism!
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Ha

Post by spanky4ever »

deleted_user wrote:Sioux only recently became a great civ. It spent its other 7 years being a one trick pony, or something like that. Top players have played many, many hundreds of games on their most preferred civs. They've been in every possible situation several times over. Those little nuances and intuitions carry over through all the years and hundreds (thousand?) of games. It's play time, familiarity and comfort which can't be reproduced in the few months since EP's last update.

Do you even beleave that is real? At this point! I dont know? I am disapointed in the choise of the civs - and changes having zero effect
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by deleted_user »

I'm not sure why I'd write something so matter-of-fact if I didn't believe it. It's the same sentiment rebounded by everyone else too :ugeek:
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Argentina AraGun
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by AraGun »

If I didnt get dq out of tourney I would have played sioux @spanky4ever. Just no real sioux players in this tournament I guess it makes me sad also because they are one of the most entertaining to play and watch.
You can watch my game vs tedere from previous tournament if you want to see a fun sioux game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-TE_dhL7rQ&t=46s
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

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Post by Aizamk »

time for another Warchiefs tournament
oranges.
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Italy Garja
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by Garja »

fei123456 wrote:
Garja wrote:I'm pretty sure a very standard stagecoach + carded teepee semi can easily match the same eco of a 5 bank Dutch semi.

Dutch is still a hard mu for sioux, as dutch actually has better units. Skirm>wakina and sioux doesn't have 13 jaegers.
Axe rider perform badly against goon-type units (20% rr, deal only 75% damage to ranged cavs), while dutch always has tons of ruyters. (And blackriders lol)
Dutch can also train 5-10 pikes to siege your TPs early, without delaying their bank boom semiff too much.

I'd prefer some colo pressure (ar+br or sth else) before age 3, trying to hurt dutch a bit and force them to stay in age 2 for a while.

Nah, Dutch is actually super easy for Sioux, just like Ger-Dutch was before if not more. Jut 4axe + 5v + 700g semi. You age up at 8.20 with 8 axe 6 teepees, 2 TPs and both market ups. Then buy enough wood for a wh (chop 50w maybe) and another 200w for axe up. This build alone wins 60% of your games with sioux.
Sioux units are better than Dutch ones even after the upgrades. It's just that Dutch also has OP eco and they eventually spam more. But Sioux can just be aggressive and prevent that from happening. Also if Dutch camps in base just send 1k w and drop another TCs, upgrade the route and keep making units for the big battle.
That's just one option but Sioux can do plenty of other things. 700w 700g 7 clubs 4axe 3axe with timing at 9-10 minutes with about 60 pop also should kill a normal dutch FF/semi FF. But again now you don't have to risk all in timings.

Also stop freaking making useless goons if not necessary. As cool as BRs used to be they're just useless vs skirm+buildings. TC alone kills them comfy. Then both skirms and ruyters do fine vs them so why even making them in the first place.

@spanky4ever
I think 30% or so my games on EP 4.0 are from Sioux. Stopped playing them because they are too OP and in fact will be nerfed soon.
In tourney you can't use them more than twice and depending on the map is just easier to pick another civ. Ideally you want Sioux vs opponent's Sioux otherwise you just drop a game.
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by pecelot »

monthly spanky Sioux-whine thread completed
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by spanky4ever »

pecelot wrote:monthly spanky Sioux-whine thread completed

yeah, I guess I deserve that remark :?:
But its not only sioux that are not played very often in tournaments. Recently we have seen some Otte and Iro games, and that is surly spicing up the MUs.
My point is, is that its getting unessasery booring to watch the same european civs being choosen over and over again, when there are so many other civs that are "forgotten"
I would still say that Sioux is one of the most fun civs to watch, and one of the most "forgotten" - even after being buffed to a point where they prolly could make a good mu for most of the euro civs.
Call it a rant, or whatever, - what the picking of 90% euro civs are doing, are making this tournament less fun than its could have been.
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Argentina AraGun
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by AraGun »

Funny how in PK tournament everyone complained about iro otto matchups every possible game and now we see too little of this.. Maybe EP made nilla civs stronger than native civs?
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by spanky4ever »

AraGun wrote:Funny how in PK tournament everyone complained about iro otto matchups every possible game and now we see too little of this.. Maybe EP made nilla civs stronger than native civs?

could also be that players choose their favorit civs - no matter what :huh: And that our heroes are slaves to their own habits :o
maybe we should have a tournament where stream vote for the most fun game/gamer? maybe that could stir things up :P And the viewers donate to their favorit player during the play?
Good idea??
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
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Re: so litte sioux play in this tournament

Post by _H2O »

People don’t like the civ sadly.

I’ve played it in niche tournament situations, even using it on high plains vs Japan where I believe they were favored without any changes made to their teepees.

Their fortress comp is so smooth and if you understand how to work that composition to can really control the game. With the teepee changes I imagine it’s easier to get to fortress.

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