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Spain Snuden
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05 May 2018, 18:10

So I watch streams of all the top players, Raphael, SirCallen, tabben, Aizamk, et al. Usually it just runs in the background, while I do other stuffs on the computer but sometimes I REALLY try to see if I can learn something.

I got the age 1 stuff down to an "acceptable level", I scout, heard and get the occasional treasure. (sometimes even the 140F on Great Planes!) My macro is not good by any standards, but it is certainly not bad either! Whenever I do mis-macro, I am getting better at trade at the market, which is not ideal, but better than stacking 1K gold for example.

My micro is terrible though.

What I really can't get into my head is this;

Today I played a game as Brits vs India on the ESOC version of Great Planes. My thoughts are something like this;

Right, he is gonna Sepoy rush me and I will defend with LB's (as I have watched so many times on stream) I will do good herding so I wont run out of food, while at the same time take great care not to overdo it, thus slowing my age-up time down.

Not only that, I will also build my manors and market in front of my TC as a wall (with my age-up tower right behind them. 21)

Things are going well, good age 1 treasures and I arrive in age 2 at 4:20. My secure TC area is full of bisons and deers.
At this point I start to think "I wish this was either recorded or streamed" and for a few seconds I get carried away to the dream of me playing vs Princeofkabul in the finals of the 2018 ESOC Crypto Corner Masters. H20 is casting with Mitoe and they are impressed.

Back in reality things are still going great! The Agra fort is scouted and my explorer is safely returning home (to snare enemy units once they arrive) I also focused on eating the hunts at the front of my base, so when the battle begins my villagers can gather in safer position.

My plan is to slam down my military building the very second I arrive in age 2, so I can start to train longbows ASAP.

Everything is going according to plan, I ship 700 wood as my first shipment, make manors, longbows and my market upgrades.
I get a batch of 5 out, manor boom is going great and I still have plenty of food in my base.

First batch of Sepoys arrive, I fight them off with ease, including killing both the annoying elephants.
I now start to think about his cav shipment. I slam down another military building and my plan is to mix in some pikes as I have seen GUA do many times. They will also come in handy when destroying the Agra on my quest to full map control.

At this point I am confident that I have done everything by the book.

And then this happens... He FLOOD my base wit Sepoys, Hussars and that Indian melee cav, which name I forgot.
I dont's stand a chance, at this point I start to panic... villagers are being lost left and right and I no longer have an army.

Why does this happen at 1lt/2lt level? Watching PR30+ players this never happens, and this is just one example. When I play vs China, Umeu have told me to start with muskets (try to destroy a house) and then switch to Hussars. Ez.

When I do it, I am met with x-bows and pikes, while being raided with his cav shipment. When Raphael is doing it, he often crush his opponent.

When I watch a PR30+ player play vs those I get crushed by, things go exactly according to plan. When I do it the scenario is always different. When I raid my opponent, he react immediately, when Raphael raid the same opponent he usually get 2-3 vills simply because the opponent react slow. When Raphael mass Longbows, he crushes Hussars, when I do it the exact opposite happens. When Raphael puts pressure on a French FF, the opponents Falc shipment arrives right in front of his muskets, when I do it, the Falc shipment arrives at the opposite side of the TC.

Does anybody else also feel like their opponents are PR666+? And whenever you try to do like the good players, you fail massively.

In the example of todays India game I seriously doubt he did a SirMoesket and spawned units, we have played before and he seem like a cool dude.

Why?
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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Germany Makrokosmos12
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Posts: 70
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05 May 2018, 18:26

Why? Why must we suffer? Jezzus3!
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United States of America Hidddy_
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ESO: Hidalgito
Location: Miami, Florida, USA

05 May 2018, 18:33

Remember to scout past age 1, use a single pike or lb or musk or your explorer. Know what units he is going to come at you with and try to gauge the time you have left until fighting. Even if your single unit is wrecked by your opponents mass while scouting it is good. You will see what units he has massed and hopefully he will have moved his army back a bit to kill the unit, garnishing you some precious seconds. Also india is just quite op too especially in re so don't feel bad, but your masses should still be roughly equal since you are brits. Don't over pike or else sepoys will just wreck them and then you'll die to cav
De Funk
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Spain Snuden
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05 May 2018, 18:43

I only make 5 pikes, the plan is to make more once it's time to take down the Agra - along with my 15 surviving Longbows.

It's not only the Brit vs India game... It is every fucking time I do something I have seen on strim, things turn out completely different when I do it. kek.
It's like (and this is obviously not the case) my opponents are better than a PR35 player :-)

I know its because I am a bad player, but in the scenarios I described, it is not because of my bad play things go wrong, but rather because my opponent makes a good move. At least that's how it feels.
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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Poland pecelot
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05 May 2018, 18:44

well, this movie says it's true :!:
I see a pikeman and I want it painted grey :geek:
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Malawi princeofcarthage
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05 May 2018, 18:46

Makrokosmos12 wrote:Why? Why must we suffer? Jezzus3!

@jesus3
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Kiribati jesus3
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05 May 2018, 18:56

princeofcarthage wrote:
Makrokosmos12 wrote:Why? Why must we suffer? Jezzus3!

@jesus3


I can't save that man unfortunately. If I would, then every single joe and jack would come to me and I have enough to do as it is
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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05 May 2018, 19:03

Great post lol.
The reason you're having this issue is probably that you just have less stuff than a great player would have, because their macro is better and build order more refined.
Compare recordings. See if you have the same manor count after holding the initial push. Has your second colonial shipment arrived or did you forget to send it? Small things like that add up, and suddenly you find yourself getting overrun.
With Brit when holding a rush, it's not just about holding the rush. It's about holding the rush and getting as many manors out as possible in the meantime. If you don't have a bunch of manors after holding an Indian rush, you're probably in trouble. India outscales you unless you outboom them during that specific time.
What was your 2nd colo shipment?
Germany lordraphael
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05 May 2018, 19:53

yes its the little things that add up. I notice it even from better players particularly in mus where both players pretty much do the exact same thing, like in dutch mirror e.g. I usually always manage to get ahead just by having crisper macro.
Also copying things from better players is not always the smartest thing to do becausse they have so much more knowledge and mechanics that matter to make a strategy work.
I realised this when i was playing sc2, for a brief period of time I was just copying builds of pros like Innovation, maru etc. but my rnak wouldnt increase, quite the opposite, it would usually decline. Because I simply lacked the mechanics and knowledge to make their builds work. When i realised that I started to incorporate only those parts of their builds that worked for me, but leave things that wouldnt work out. That approach basically made me a fringe Gm player ( tho i never reached it, still boggles me today :) ). while i never came above low mid /master when i was just copying builds.
breeze wrote:they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Kiribati SirCallen
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05 May 2018, 19:54

Snuden you need big mentor, big pain train conductor, big brit extroidinaire, virtuoso, vanquisher, someone who's arrived at the top from even further down the ladder, calloused-hand by big rung jumps, looking, yearning to leave a legacy, impart an appropriate vessel his knowledge, a post-exodus trophy of personal accomplishment, to surpass in time and exceed everyone's expectations.
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
Great Britain WickedCossack
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05 May 2018, 19:55

Snuden wrote:When I watch a PR30+ player play vs those I get crushed by, things go exactly according to plan. When I do it the scenario is always different. When I raid my opponent, he react immediately, when Raphael raid the same opponent he usually get 2-3 vills simply because the opponent react slow. When Raphael mass Longbows, he crushes Hussars, when I do it the exact opposite happens. When Raphael puts pressure on a French FF, the opponents Falc shipment arrives right in front of his muskets, when I do it, the Falc shipment arrives at the opposite side of the TC.

Why?


It's the "I never play as well against better players" phenomenon.

In truth you probably are playing exactly the same but against a much better player they have the mechanics/strategy to exploit any mistakes you make in a game so it feels like you're just getting unlucky.

For example when you watch someone like Raph win because a 2 falc shipment popped out on the wrong side and he capitalized it's very easy to focus on that specific moment and not on all the other moments where he was poised to capitalize on a mistake that never came.

There could have been 20 key moments that game where the enemy reacted to 19 of them perfectly, e/g defending a raid, good army position, shipment timing etc whatever

The point is Raph would be there for like 17 of those moments, so he's very likely to be there for that one fatal moment (in this case the 2 falc pop.)

A weaker player might only be in position to capitalize on 4 of those key moments and so probably never even sees the fatal mistake. Hence why you will wonder "why does my opponent never make these mistakes I see on stream?!?" Well they do!

From an outside perspective then ofc it just looks like Raph would've gotten insanely lucky catching the 2 falcs when really it could've been one moment out of any 20.
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Czech Republic Googol
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05 May 2018, 20:02

I’ll coach you daddy snuden.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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05 May 2018, 20:27

I had this exact same feeling when I was captain. Back then, my macro was really good, and I could have the exact same amount of units a top players has, but I would keep losing to other captains for some reasons.

Now, I know that back then, my play wasn't flawless at all lol.
First, my unit positioning was awful. With 10 longbowmen I would get crushed by a 12 sepoy rush again and again, while today, I know that with 5 lb, and 5 more on the way, I can poke his sepoys, while shooting his elephants with my TC, and hold easily with mm if the guy commits under my TC.

This brings me to this: what really matters is the knowledge. I know that with just 5 lb and 5 on the way I can hold, so I can go for more eco orientated builds, while as a captain I could barely hold with 10 lb ready for the rush.

So naturally, if you try to copy top players' builds, you're going to lose because you don't have the right plan.
Let's say you held his push with your lb/pike mass, then what? Lb/pike isn't meant to kill India in colonial, unless you get a huge advantage in age2, so you probably would have lost anyway.

I think that you should really try to think about it and keep trying, record your games, and try to understand why you lost. And if you don't you can always ask someone to find your mistakes.
With time and practice, this knowledgr will come to you if you don't give up ;)

PS: It always looks so nice on top players stream because first, as Cossack said, they try to get every advantage they can, and don't miss an opportunity, but also, and I think it's a key point, because they set up «traps».
For example, Raphael likes (or well used to like) to raid with 2 hussars during fights, when the opponent is busy microing, and doesn't here the alert, while you probably raid at 7min when the opponent is expecting it.
Defensively it's also big. When a guy only sees 5 lb, he wants to commit, although it's not the right choice, while he would back right away if I had 10 lb.
Finally the timing knowledge is also huge: knowing when exactly the timing hits, so you just have enough to hold.
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Poland pecelot
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05 May 2018, 20:35

SirCallen wrote:Snuden you need big mentor, big pain train conductor, big brit extroidinaire, virtuoso, vanquisher, someone who's arrived at the top from even further down the ladder, calloused-hand by big rung jumps, looking, yearning to leave a legacy, impart an appropriate vessel his knowledge, a post-exodus trophy of personal accomplishment, to surpass in time and exceed everyone's expectations.

I've watched No Strings Attached and can't help but feel that it's actually Ashton Kutcher writing as SirCallen
I see a pikeman and I want it painted grey :geek:
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Malawi princeofcarthage
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05 May 2018, 20:43

Hazza once told pr 35 + get additional game buffs from microsoft.
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Spain Snuden
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06 May 2018, 05:04

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I had this exact same feeling when I was captain. Back then, my macro was really good, and I could have the exact same amount of units a top players has, but I would keep losing to other captains for some reasons.

Now, I know that back then, my play wasn't flawless at all lol.
First, my unit positioning was awful. With 10 longbowmen I would get crushed by a 12 sepoy rush again and again, while today, I know that with 5 lb, and 5 more on the way, I can poke his sepoys, while shooting his elephants with my TC, and hold easily with mm if the guy commits under my TC.

This brings me to this: what really matters is the knowledge. I know that with just 5 lb and 5 on the way I can hold, so I can go for more eco orientated builds, while as a captain I could barely hold with 10 lb ready for the rush.

So naturally, if you try to copy top players' builds, you're going to lose because you don't have the right plan.
Let's say you held his push with your lb/pike mass, then what? Lb/pike isn't meant to kill India in colonial, unless you get a huge advantage in age2, so you probably would have lost anyway.

I think that you should really try to think about it and keep trying, record your games, and try to understand why you lost. And if you don't you can always ask someone to find your mistakes.
With time and practice, this knowledgr will come to you if you don't give up ;)

PS: It always looks so nice on top players stream because first, as Cossack said, they try to get every advantage they can, and don't miss an opportunity, but also, and I think it's a key point, because they set up «traps».
For example, Raphael likes (or well used to like) to raid with 2 hussars during fights, when the opponent is busy microing, and doesn't here the alert, while you probably raid at 7min when the opponent is expecting it.
Defensively it's also big. When a guy only sees 5 lb, he wants to commit, although it's not the right choice, while he would back right away if I had 10 lb.
Finally the timing knowledge is also huge: knowing when exactly the timing hits, so you just have enough to hold.

Yes, I think you are absolutely right.
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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Spain Snuden
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06 May 2018, 05:10

Goodspeed wrote:Great post lol.
The reason you're having this issue is probably that you just have less stuff than a great player would have, because their macro is better and build order more refined.
Compare recordings. See if you have the same manor count after holding the initial push. Has your second colonial shipment arrived or did you forget to send it? Small things like that add up, and suddenly you find yourself getting overrun.
With Brit when holding a rush, it's not just about holding the rush. It's about holding the rush and getting as many manors out as possible in the meantime. If you don't have a bunch of manors after holding an Indian rush, you're probably in trouble. India outscales you unless you outboom them during that specific time.
What was your 2nd colo shipment?

I have tried to compare my manor/vill count with GUA's ditto, which I know is... ehm... not the right benchmark :hmm:
Usually I ship either 5 vills or 600 wood, if I am low on food in my base I might ship 6 Longbows or 6 Muskets.

First and second age 2 shipments are never shipped late, third shipment though is another matter.
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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Kiribati SirCallen
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Location: Midwest best west

06 May 2018, 05:13

@Snuden you should post a rec!

A lack of certain mechanics at some levels can make certain play styles, unit compositions, and decisions disproptionally better than they "should" be and altogether apparent rather than not-at-all in high games.

The sepoy rush into 3 huss + 4 sowar is a disproportionally strong build at most ranks.

P.S. great use of "slam"
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue
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Spain Snuden
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Location: x666 HQ

06 May 2018, 05:18

Yea I will post a rec.
Yesterday was the first time I was faced with the 3 huss + sowar thing, very strong indeed.
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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Spain Snuden
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06 May 2018, 05:31

WickedCossack wrote:
Snuden wrote:When I watch a PR30+ player play vs those I get crushed by, things go exactly according to plan. When I do it the scenario is always different. When I raid my opponent, he react immediately, when Raphael raid the same opponent he usually get 2-3 vills simply because the opponent react slow. When Raphael mass Longbows, he crushes Hussars, when I do it the exact opposite happens. When Raphael puts pressure on a French FF, the opponents Falc shipment arrives right in front of his muskets, when I do it, the Falc shipment arrives at the opposite side of the TC.

Why?


It's the "I never play as well against better players" phenomenon.

In truth you probably are playing exactly the same but against a much better player they have the mechanics/strategy to exploit any mistakes you make in a game so it feels like you're just getting unlucky.

For example when you watch someone like Raph win because a 2 falc shipment popped out on the wrong side and he capitalized it's very easy to focus on that specific moment and not on all the other moments where he was poised to capitalize on a mistake that never came.

There could have been 20 key moments that game where the enemy reacted to 19 of them perfectly, e/g defending a raid, good army position, shipment timing etc whatever

The point is Raph would be there for like 17 of those moments, so he's very likely to be there for that one fatal moment (in this case the 2 falc pop.)

A weaker player might only be in position to capitalize on 4 of those key moments and so probably never even sees the fatal mistake. Hence why you will wonder "why does my opponent never make these mistakes I see on stream?!?" Well they do!

From an outside perspective then ofc it just looks like Raph would've gotten insanely lucky catching the 2 falcs when really it could've been one moment out of any 20.

This is exactly it. Why does my PR20 opponent play much better than most of the PR35+ players I watch on stream.
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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France [Armag] diarouga
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06 May 2018, 06:05

Well that's what Cossack just explained, he doesn't play better than most of the pr35+ players.He makes more mistakes, but you don't manage to capitalize on these ones, while a pr35 makes less mistakes (and would capitalize on your opponent's mistakes), but raphael does win because of these mistakes.
No Flag umeu
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Posts: 9999

06 May 2018, 06:07

mistake #1. I did what I saw GUA do many times.

thank me later!
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Spain Snuden
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06 May 2018, 06:09

umeu wrote:mistake #1. I did what I saw GUA do many times.

thank me later!

BO 27 on Deccan?
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
No Flag umeu
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Posts: 9999

06 May 2018, 06:12

Snuden wrote:
umeu wrote:mistake #1. I did what I saw GUA do many times.

thank me later!

BO 27 on Deccan?


i dont get out of bed for anything less than bo69 and only if you have a bo2D's.
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Spain Snuden
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ESO: Snuden
Location: x666 HQ

06 May 2018, 06:44

At least I have stopped sending my age up tower to a goldmine my opponent would need 25 minutes into the game.
When I came up with the idea I already imagined Mitoe silently nodding in acknowledgement.

"Now If I somehow can make a fight happen in this remote area of the map I will have the advantage!"
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center

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