The Musketeer Case

[Jaeger]

Sorry for off topic but I think it would be nice to buff rod siege; they're HI and have terrible siege.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Sorry for off topic but I think it would be nice to buff rod siege; they're HI and have terrible siege.

Yes but they're the best HI so I don't think they need a buff.

[deleted_user]

[on topic of musketeer nerf] Besides being dumb it's not pragmatic -- would change balance too much, create a stale meta.

First off: let's clear this up: a musketeer nerf wouldn't touch all musketeer-type units. Sepoy and Jans have already been touched and Ashi are expensive af and Tomos are also not, resource and animation-wise, great musketeer units.

A musk nerf would completely rek India vs Brit MU, probably rek Brit vs Suckpan too, with ashi rushes suddenly doing very well because longbows are a trash unit, turn Ruskets into the biggest meme unit EP has ever seen, plus buff the fuck out of Aztec, etc.

The issue with musketeers is singular: Brits can make too many of them, and upgrade them, and upgrade their snaring huss too. What other civ abuses musketeers in age 2? Of the civs that even make them: Brit, France, Port, Russia, Spain, only Brit is who you fear the musketeer spam from.

Semi ff meta and EP maps simply rules out Samewise-build-esque-musk/huss stuff from France, Port, Spain. It dies too easy to skirm/goon and it's slow. It exists nearly solely to defend all-in bow/pike rushes, which are just bad anyways and would still lose, or, in some cases, for a timing push. Are these considered OP now? Maybe nerf musketeer siege I guess... we simply don't see any aggressive musketeer play from these three civs, which we'd see if the unit was OP?

Russia can't afford weaker muskets, enough said.

Then it's Brit, still the kind of "EP Eleiggle" civ of the bunch. But brit don't have a lot of choice, lacking fast age is killer and they can't afford to send 700g second outside of VC builds -- their early age 3 is too slow then (no shadow tech units, expensive housing, slow infrastructure (no 400w politician)).

And so Brit booms because they have to, and push wth musketeers because they have to, and can upgrade those suckers, and upgrade their hussars too (which musk are kind of contingent on) and yeah, because they have 2x eco it's nuts, and because they have those 4 upgrade cards it's nuts, not because of musketeer base stats and role,m. We don't see musketeers being made in age 3 ever except by Brit because of their upgrade cards, and because lbows are trash and can't kite, and only in certain MUs like for instance to abuse China's lack of anti cav and to simultaneously counter their best unit (meteor hammers), and Russia sometimes just because of existing infrastructure and lingering units.

I just don't buy it. This is a different AoE than from GS's TAD Guide.

[Hazza54321]

Muskets arent even that great vs cav also, i really dont think nerfing the style of colonial civs is any good, especially since a fair few of them struggle to get age 3

[princeofkabul]

@deleted_user2

[deleted_user]

Musketeers aren't sepoys. Sepoys aren't germane -- they got nerfed.

[princeofkabul]

time to summon the great somali

[deleted_user0]

Are muskets too strong?

The answer is yes.
How often do you see french mirror played using goon-skirm combination? Never. Because they have muskets which eliminate this combination and makes aging up impossible.
Let's now consider how musket civs dominate this game.

Russia
Absolute monster civ. 10 gends and 15 skirms running to your base? No worries. A few, maybe 20 ruskets do the job. No chance.

Ottomans
They thought nerfing jan, abus and mames was enough? Not true, my friend. This tier 1 civ which has been dominating last tournaments is still too op. Those janissaries should still be nerfed. On the other hand, I would recommend giving this civilization 10 hussar age up so their revolt becomes stronger.

India
Sepoy meta has eliminated skirm-goon play here. Only weak players such as Rapha and Mitoe use it. In my opinion, when we see lame games, for example using sepoys and urumis, it is a completele disgrace to this game. No skirm-goon? No fun.

French
Again, match up dominated by muskets. Who would age up here to spam skirms and goons? Hah! Not me.

Japan
Just put your mouse on the homecity. What do they say about Japan? That the strongest unit is samurai. This Tier-1 civ, which helped Mitoe (a very weak player) to win a monociv up was unbeatable. Why? Ashigarus are too op. This civ was blessed with insane anticav, Yabusames, still no-one is doing them? Why? Ashigarus are too dominant.

Unfortunately, we are living in a colonial age meta. Aging up does not make sense. Any good timed musket push destroys those plans.

Instead of upgrading crossbows (absolute monster unit already!) which would make a decent counter vs muskets in age 2 wars, let's nerf the muskets.
After 8 years of playing this game, I'm excited to finally see some other but musket play. I cannot wait to see exciting goon-skirm battles for the first time in the future!

[Hazza54321]

Russia
Absolute monster civ. 10 gends and 15 skirms running to your base? No worries. A few, maybe 20 ruskets do the job. No chance
Lol how do you expect to get age 3 vs ruskets anyway

[Mitoe]

Zambs kinda need the 30% card to be good, but they’re still fine anti-cav as vet for the most part. In a lot of games the tankiness of sepoy is more desirable though.

Also xbows are fine.

[zoom]

The Zamburak hardly needs it in the Colonial Age. Its base stats are considerably better than those of the Dragoon, already, IIRC.

[Hazza54321]

Why are zamb even in colonial

[[Armag] diarouga]

The Zamburak hardly needs it in the Colonial Age. Its base stats are considerably better than those of the Dragoon, already, IIRC.

Not at all.

[zoom]

Why are zamb even in colonial

alt-d

[zoom]

The Zamburak hardly needs it in the Colonial Age. Its base stats are considerably better than those of the Dragoon, already, IIRC.

Not at all.

That's interesting. Base statistics:

Dragoon:

Attack per cost (ranged): 0.122 (0.367 to heavy cavalry, 0.3361 to Coyote Runners, 0.244 to artillery)
Hitpoints per cost: 1.111
Hitpoints per cost (ranged damage): 1.389
Population efficiency: 90
Siege attack per cost: 0.050
Speed: 7.25
Veteran improvement free and instant


Zamburak:

Attack per cost (ranged): 0.1250 (0.4375 to heavy cavalry, 0.3125 to Coyote Runners, 0.281 to artillery)
Hitpoints per cost: 1.0
Hitpoints per cost (ranged damage): 1.429
Population efficiency: 120
Siege attack per cost: 0.067
Speed: 7.5
Disciplined improvement research costs 200w, 100c, required for artillery multiplier

[Hazza54321]

zambs are better for their purpose, nuff said

[zoom]

ez

[deleted_user0]

ez4neonazioom

[zoom]

Oh look, the arrogant little baby is obsessed with me again. Sour Times...

[Kaiserklein]

The Zamburak hardly needs it in the Colonial Age. Its base stats are considerably better than those of the Dragoon, already, IIRC.

Not at all.

Goons are slightly better than zambs in ranged fights on EP, but it's really close. On the other hand zambs are slightly better than goons at killing hand cav.

[Kaiserklein]

The Zamburak hardly needs it in the Colonial Age. Its base stats are considerably better than those of the Dragoon, already, IIRC.

Not at all.

That's interesting. Base statistics:

Dragoon:

Attack per cost (ranged): 0.122 (0.367 to heavy cavalry, 0.3361 to Coyote Runners, 0.244 to artillery)
Hitpoints per cost: 1.111
Hitpoints per cost (ranged damage): 1.389
Population efficiency: 90
Siege attack per cost: 0.050
Speed: 7.25
Veteran improvement free and instant


Zamburak:

Attack per cost (ranged): 12.50 (0.4375 to heavy cavalry, 0.3125 to Coyote Runners, 0.281 to artillery)
Hitpoints per cost: 1.0
Hitpoints per cost (ranged damage): 1.429
Population efficiency: 120
Siege attack per cost: 0.067
Speed: 7.5
Disciplined improvement research costs 200w, 100c, required for artillery multiplier

Well again, the whole "stats per cost" thing is really not accurate. Cheaper units always seem better then, because you don't take drop off into account

[Garja]

Zambs have 30% rr and higher attack per cost (at least after camel attack).
When you think about that in colonial they get more attack than gurkha while costing about the same you realize how good they are.

Btw, dropoff is compensated by overkill most of times and especially in ranged fights vs a clump of goons.

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

The Zamburak hardly needs it in the Colonial Age. Its base stats are considerably better than those of the Dragoon, already, IIRC.

Not at all.

That's interesting. Base statistics:

Dragoon:

Attack per cost (ranged): 0.122 (0.367 to heavy cavalry, 0.3361 to Coyote Runners, 0.244 to artillery)
Hitpoints per cost: 1.111
Hitpoints per cost (ranged damage): 1.389
Population efficiency: 90
Siege attack per cost: 0.050
Speed: 7.25
Veteran improvement free and instant


Zamburak:

Attack per cost (ranged): 12.50 (0.4375 to heavy cavalry, 0.3125 to Coyote Runners, 0.281 to artillery)
Hitpoints per cost: 1.0
Hitpoints per cost (ranged damage): 1.429
Population efficiency: 120
Siege attack per cost: 0.067
Speed: 7.5
Disciplined improvement research costs 200w, 100c, required for artillery multiplier

Well again, the whole "stats per cost" thing is really not accurate. Cheaper units always seem better then, because you don't take drop off into account

Also crowding. Not to mention I made a typo and it said Zamburak ranged attack is "12.50" instead of "0.125". Thank you to sircallen for pointing that out.

Overkill, though.

[Kaiserklein]

@Garja Well in practice overkill makes up a bit for drop off, but I was mostly commenting zoom's maths approach, which is theoretical

[Garja]

Ye I don't like to base conclusions only on math, let alone ratios only. I think base stats also gives a complementary idea of the relative strenght of the units.
In any case, being a 1 pop unit but worth 2/3 of a goon is great regardless.