Walls Design Sucks
- I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Just tipping my head to AoM, in AoM vanilla the TC situation was you can only build more TC's once you had hit heroic age regardless of civ, this meant the greek civs were more ushered into age 3 instead of early mass in age 2. Along come the titans expansion pack and all all civs can build a second TC in the Classical age now (275w and 275gold for greeks i think but with wood and gold having a relatively higher gather rate than wood in AoE3) where play styles changed drastically. The greeks pefer to stay Age 2 with 2 TC eco with stronger greek units where as the Egyptians would mostly fast heroic. The Atlanteans who gain favour through controlling TC's can build extra TC's at the very start of the game albeit their TC's are weaker.
A realistic possible change would be that only your starting TC can spawn minutes, as matches where playes reach age 4 as port with no units is not really healthy for the game imo.
A realistic possible change would be that only your starting TC can spawn minutes, as matches where playes reach age 4 as port with no units is not really healthy for the game imo.
- I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
But I am also for testing / (in my case watching streams) civs being able to build extra TC's from the start of the game
Re: Town Center Design Sucks
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:But I am also for testing / (in my case watching streams) civs being able to build extra TC's from the start of the game
I doubt you would see many changes. Civs that like to FF would still FF. It would serve as a buff for colonial civs and might enable more gimmicky FI/revolt strats, but I don't think you would see a huge difference overall.
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- I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
it would certainly give extra options versus water, and if anything water would possibly become obsolete, i think russia would really benefit from the extra TC asa starting point. i think for some civs on land their eco can only grow at a fixed set rate but i guess TP's already kinda fill that hole
Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Well just because it's not your style and you control the patch changes doesn't mean you have to exploit that lol.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Ashvin wrote:Well just because it's not your style and you control the patch changes doesn't mean you have to exploit that lol.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
How many people actually exploit walls though?
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Feels like walls are really only exploitable on RE because:
1) insufficient land resources for non-waller
2) imbal water (talking warships)
3) high hp:cost for walls
4) imbal late-game (talking ports, jap, and sioux's insufficient eco)
Nothing wrong with walling per se other than it was a means to abuse game imbalances on RE.
On EP all four metrics were adjusted and walls are still seen and used in play, albeit now for strategic segments rather than multi-layer "laming." It's fresh imo.
Instilling a "wall build limit" is just hampering players. Totally unpopular change which doesn't accomplish anything and which doesn't address any immediate balance issue.
1) insufficient land resources for non-waller
2) imbal water (talking warships)
3) high hp:cost for walls
4) imbal late-game (talking ports, jap, and sioux's insufficient eco)
Nothing wrong with walling per se other than it was a means to abuse game imbalances on RE.
On EP all four metrics were adjusted and walls are still seen and used in play, albeit now for strategic segments rather than multi-layer "laming." It's fresh imo.
Instilling a "wall build limit" is just hampering players. Totally unpopular change which doesn't accomplish anything and which doesn't address any immediate balance issue.
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Re: Walls Design Sucks
Problem is even having 5 units, lets say 5 yumis or lbs behind a wall , they get infinite value for 50w or whatever, this isnt an issue once cannons mortars and ofc rams become available though, thats why id suggest age 3. Also requires skill to pull off a sick defence
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Papist wrote:Ashvin wrote:Well just because it's not your style and you control the patch changes doesn't mean you have to exploit that lol.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
How many people actually exploit walls though?
:)
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Papist wrote:Ashvin wrote:Well just because it's not your style and you control the patch changes doesn't mean you have to exploit that lol.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
How many people actually exploit walls though?
Walls are used in late rounds tourney games on a regular basis.
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Papist wrote:Ashvin wrote:Well just because it's not your style and you control the patch changes doesn't mean you have to exploit that lol.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
How many people actually exploit walls though?
Idk. I just don't want patch makers to remove walls completely from ages before industrial
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Walls Design Sucks
You're tackling the wrong issue honestly.
Walls are meant to be an eco investment which allows you to defend at the cost of like 50w, which is an interesting design.
Now, the issue is that all civs don't have the same eco options (which is the big issue, that's why it's so hard to balance, and that's why we're in a stale meta). Thus some civs can boom and build walls, while other civs can't.
So what's the best way to fix that? Well, give every civ economic options. In every RTS game I know, you can turtle (in AOE2 buildings are op, and walls are unkillable, so it's easy to turtle, in starcraft you can easily wall your ramp with terran, make bunkers and defensive siege tanks...), but it's not optimal because you have to invest in defence while your opponent tries to outboom you.
And well, at this moment TPs do the job. You can't really wall and turtle because else your opponent is going to take the TP line and outboom you.
That is why no TP maps actually suck from both a balance and design perspective.
Walls are meant to be an eco investment which allows you to defend at the cost of like 50w, which is an interesting design.
Now, the issue is that all civs don't have the same eco options (which is the big issue, that's why it's so hard to balance, and that's why we're in a stale meta). Thus some civs can boom and build walls, while other civs can't.
So what's the best way to fix that? Well, give every civ economic options. In every RTS game I know, you can turtle (in AOE2 buildings are op, and walls are unkillable, so it's easy to turtle, in starcraft you can easily wall your ramp with terran, make bunkers and defensive siege tanks...), but it's not optimal because you have to invest in defence while your opponent tries to outboom you.
And well, at this moment TPs do the job. You can't really wall and turtle because else your opponent is going to take the TP line and outboom you.
That is why no TP maps actually suck from both a balance and design perspective.
Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Kaiserklein wrote:Papist wrote:Ashvin wrote:Well just because it's not your style and you control the patch changes doesn't mean you have to exploit that lol.
I think walls should have build limit maybe something like 25 for age2, 50 for age3, unlimited for age4 and above. This way you can still wall potentially sensitive areas or for strategic purposes without exploiting them. This will make people delete pillars more often and that's fine by me.
How many people actually exploit walls though?
Walls are used in late rounds tourney games on a regular basis.
Do you have any links? Because aside from Tit and kynesie, I don't remember any heavy wallers in recent events.
On a separate note, I'm still wondering if people are hostile towards walls because they're actually broken or because they interfere with standard build orders. Because God forbid you adapt to your opponent instead of going for the same canned strat every game.
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- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
Papist wrote:Kaiserklein wrote:Show hidden quotes
Walls are used in late rounds tourney games on a regular basis.
Do you have any links? Because aside from Tit and kynesie, I don't remember any heavy wallers in recent events.
On a separate note, I'm still wondering if people are hostile towards walls because they're actually broken or because they interfere with standard build orders. Because God forbid you adapt to your opponent instead of going for the same canned strat every game.
Yea Tit and kynesie are the only 2 heavy wallers. Other players build some small walls though.
I think that people are hostile toward walls because they can't adapt (or rather, they don't like to adapt). Walls are an issue on no TP maps, where they're really broken though, but tbh no TP maps are an issue regardless of walls.
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Re: Walls Design Sucks
you can't trade monopoly in qs, which according to you should be the default rated mode.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Walls Design Sucks
umeu wrote:you can't trade monopoly in qs, which according to you should be the default rated mode.
Yes, you should always be allowed to trade monopoly to counter wall spam.
My point wasn't about trade monopoly here (although it's a good point) but rather about TPs giving a nice eco option.
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Re: Walls Design Sucks
Sigh ep doesnt need more eco options
Re: Walls Design Sucks
It's not about adapting. You can have a good 40% more eco having adapted and still just having weaker ranged unit or more spread eco.
In any case it's not even about balance but design. Don't really want a game where walling the whole map is viable.
In any case it's not even about balance but design. Don't really want a game where walling the whole map is viable.
Re: Walls Design Sucks
There are some very underrated wall aspects in the game. If those usages would become more widespread it would probably make the game less fun to almost everyone.
1) cheeky little gates or very cheap full wall offs as defensive civs. The momuuu gate (which I learned from Goodspeed) is really strong as Dutch, and wall segments in general are great especially if you remember to just plop put a gate in dire situations.
2) you can and should just wall off all little chokes. Arkansas amd Pampas Sierras top sides, tibet, iowa, even on mendocino you should always wall off bits and pieces, its only 20w. If you do just that its actually really abusive.
3) back hunts are broken due to walls. Hunts appear far away from the TC but at an angle so that 3-4 wall segments actually make them really safe and by doing that you just break the map. Goodspeed vs jerom g1 is a good example.
4) actually, everytime a hunt might be slightly unsafe, you should throw some wall segments in front of it. If it comes to a battle you'll be favored a lot because of a positioning advantage.
5) cheeky things like walling off mines and towers are very underused too.
All these things are underused but actually very strong and lame. Just removing walls would actually make the game better.
1) cheeky little gates or very cheap full wall offs as defensive civs. The momuuu gate (which I learned from Goodspeed) is really strong as Dutch, and wall segments in general are great especially if you remember to just plop put a gate in dire situations.
2) you can and should just wall off all little chokes. Arkansas amd Pampas Sierras top sides, tibet, iowa, even on mendocino you should always wall off bits and pieces, its only 20w. If you do just that its actually really abusive.
3) back hunts are broken due to walls. Hunts appear far away from the TC but at an angle so that 3-4 wall segments actually make them really safe and by doing that you just break the map. Goodspeed vs jerom g1 is a good example.
4) actually, everytime a hunt might be slightly unsafe, you should throw some wall segments in front of it. If it comes to a battle you'll be favored a lot because of a positioning advantage.
5) cheeky things like walling off mines and towers are very underused too.
All these things are underused but actually very strong and lame. Just removing walls would actually make the game better.
Re: Town Center Design Sucks
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Papist wrote:Show hidden quotes
Do you have any links? Because aside from Tit and kynesie, I don't remember any heavy wallers in recent events.
On a separate note, I'm still wondering if people are hostile towards walls because they're actually broken or because they interfere with standard build orders. Because God forbid you adapt to your opponent instead of going for the same canned strat every game.
Yea Tit and kynesie are the only 2 heavy wallers. Other players build some small walls though.
I think that people are hostile toward walls because they can't adapt (or rather, they don't like to adapt). Walls are an issue on no TP maps, where they're really broken though, but tbh no TP maps are an issue regardless of walls.
What about kingofosman, gibthedurty or giveuanxiety ? Aren't they heavy waller ? And I am pretty sure they is a lot more that I forget about. Plus if we talk only about who deletes pillars (regardless of the amount of walls), the question is rather who doesn't do that ?
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Re: Walls Design Sucks
@Papist most people don't wall up the whole map, but some people abuse walls in tourneys. I don't have a specific link, but I myself for example use walls in basically each of my tourney series I think.
And the problem about walls, before even talking about balance, is that they just completely slow down the pace of the game, and they mean the defender doesn't really need to have defense skills anymore since he's completely shielded by walls.
And the problem about walls, before even talking about balance, is that they just completely slow down the pace of the game, and they mean the defender doesn't really need to have defense skills anymore since he's completely shielded by walls.
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
bwinner1 wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:Show hidden quotes
Yea Tit and kynesie are the only 2 heavy wallers. Other players build some small walls though.
I think that people are hostile toward walls because they can't adapt (or rather, they don't like to adapt). Walls are an issue on no TP maps, where they're really broken though, but tbh no TP maps are an issue regardless of walls.
What about kingofosman, gibthedurty or giveuanxiety ??
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
[Armag] diarouga wrote:bwinner1 wrote:Show hidden quotes
What about kingofosman, gibthedurty or giveuanxiety ??
u want to say something?
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Re: Town Center Design Sucks
KINGofOsmane wrote:[Armag] diarouga wrote:Show hidden quotes
u want to say something?
he wants to say u suck!
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