Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

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Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

I was watching some @Garja recs and came across this game. I really like Ports but I simply can't play it without losing the game maybe because it isn't as fast as the other civs I play, or maybe bc the boom pays off a little late giving enough time to other civs to finish off the game. But I really liked this game because FI with fortification card gives you a good protection(atleast you can get to indus against non-age2-playing-civs). But the problem is you can the entire map to your opponent, like in this game. When Garja sees @deleted_user5 making wall and fort and trying to FI he simply takes the map, tp and stagecoach and the sea booms even harder and still gathering from hunts while breeze has to switch to slow gathering mills and plantations.

Now I have a couple of questions.
1. Why would breeze go to age4 in 1v1? —simply for goons? or for 4 TC + factories boom? I don't think only goons could have won this game, maybe some canons for skirms idk. I think if he had simply made some cassadors, in the beginning, to clear off skirms it would be better because cass > skirms in a skirm fight(?).

2. When should he have ended his boom and actually start making something happen to hurt G's eco? Why didn't he contest the tp line with a mixed army composition?

3. Why no sea boom? Like simply it would be a lot easier for B to take the coastal areas to himself and get some more space and resources. I know he didn't do it in the beginning because he wanted to get to industrial fast, but why didn't he do it when he saw G doing it?

4. Why no adv church card? In cases like this, adv church card gives you a good number of units quickly. Maybe couple of besterios or BlackRiders would be good.

5. Where did he really go wrong and what could he do prevent it?
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[RE SP] Breezebrothers[PT] vs Garja[SP] - ESOC Hudson Bay.age3yrec
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ESOC Hudson Bay
ESOC Hudson Bay
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 30 minutes
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:I was watching some @Garja recs and came across this game. I really like Ports but I simply can't play it without losing the game maybe because it isn't as fast as the other civs I play, or maybe bc the boom pays off a little late giving enough time to other civs to finish off the game. But I really liked this game because FI with fortification card gives you a good protection(atleast you can get to indus against non-age2-playing-civs). But the problem is you can the entire map to your opponent, like in this game. When Garja sees @deleted_user5 making wall and fort and trying to FI he simply takes the map, tp and stagecoach and the sea booms even harder and still gathering from hunts while breeze has to switch to slow gathering mills and plantations.

Now I have a couple of questions.
1. Why would breeze go to age4 in 1v1? —simply for goons? or for 4 TC + factories boom? I don't think only goons could have won this game, maybe some canons for skirms idk. I think if he had simply made some cassadors, in the beginning, to clear off skirms it would be better because cass > skirms in a skirm fight(?).

2. When should he have ended his boom and actually start making something happen to hurt G's eco? Why didn't he contest the tp line with a mixed army composition?

3. Why no sea boom? Like simply it would be a lot easier for B to take the coastal areas to himself and get some more space and resources. I know he didn't do it in the beginning because he wanted to get to industrial fast, but why didn't he do it when he saw G doing it?

4. Why no adv church card? In cases like this, adv church card gives you a good number of units quickly. Maybe couple of besterios or BlackRiders would be good.

5. Where did he really go wrong and what could he do prevent it?

I'd really appreciate if (besides the people I mentioned) @[Armag] diarouga @_H2O could also answer it.

[spoiler=EDIT]since the tag didn't work
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
[/spoiler]

1)a) FI with Ports is quite common in 1v1. The japs used to do that every game in 1v1 some years ago (if you're looking for some recs pm me and I'll send you some of my recs and setugen/boneng's). The idea is that Port is trash in age 3. They don't have falcs and thus can't deal with mass skirm, nor with falcs. In addition, cassadors are horrible because they have less HP than skirms and range resistance instead, which means they die super fast in hand combat.
I've played so many games vs Spain/France where I had a 30v/10 military pop lead but lost because all my units disappeared against rod/lancers or skirms. In age 3 wars as Ports, you really need to outmass your opponent (like +10%) if you want to win a fight, and I'm sure you can understand that it's impossible because you need to invest a lot in your eco.

b)Now, what's different in age 4? Well, you have heavy canons, and they just counter everything. Falcs and skirms get molested by HCs, and even goons die very fast. Thus, goon/HC is actually a good unit composition, because it beats full goon (because your goons are going to be better with goon combat and more range, you won't have the eco to get the age 4 upgrade early though, and HCs are going to kill a lot of goons). Culvs aren't a thing because your goons can snipe them with their insane range.
Honestly on the RE, I'm not sure France/Spain have an effective way to counter port goon/HCs before late game (they will have more eco though, so more units and they can deal with the FI, but they shouldn't take good fights).

c) No, you shouldn't make cassa because on top of being bad for the reasons I explained, they cost a lot of food (which is awkward when you want to FI), and you want to take cost effective fights, which is not going to happen if you make cassa, especially if you're outmassed.
I haven't watched the rec yet, but if breeze didn't go for heavy canons, then he made a mistake.

2)a) When to stop your eco is always difficult to answer, because on the one hand you're going to play a long game and thus you want some eco, but on the other you won't have the map and having iddle vills sucks. I used to stop my vill production at 45-50 vills till I got the map, but there are other solutions (I'm going to explain which later).
Often, since you'll have all the gold you have, the question is "do I want to make one vill or a goon?". If you think that an extra goon will accomplish something, then go for it, else train a vill.
b) As I said, I haven't watched the game yet, but you don't have full intelligence in a real game, and it's very risky to push and contest the TP line because you can get trapped by a rod/lancer army and lose the game because you moved out. If your opponent goes age 4 (or rather reaches because you won't know he's aging), then you have some time to contest the map and the TP line, and you should do it.

3) Well, water FI is in general a lot stronger than std FI, because you have monitors (which allow you to snipe culvs/TCs/TPs), and a sustainable food/gold eco, so if you can do it, go for it. I guess that breeze has some experience against garja, and that he couldn't win with the sea in the previous games, and decided to go for land play instead.
It would make sense because spain is very good against water booms (because they have a lot of siege units, and fast shipments which allow them to send boats), and garja does fine with spain vs ports on water maps.
Likewise, in the loser final of the winter tournament, kynesie knew that his port water boom wouldn't work against my spain, and went for a land FI, and then won the game (although he shouldn't have :sad: ).

4) Adv church card is very controversial. I know that usually breeze likes it (he used it a lot on nilla especially) because it gives you military options when you run out of food/gold. After sending the besteiros (age 4 xbows), you can make age 4 bows, who are rather strong and cost only 40f, which allows you to spam units with like 2 mills, and vills on wood.
In my opinon, it's better to make a mill/plantation transition and keep training goons, because you invested a lot in goons (2 shipments and the age 4 upgrade), and you don't really need xbows in your composition.
I'd say that if you're playing an age 3 war, it can be viable (because xbows do great against skirm/goon), but after a FI you already have good units, and bows won't protect your HCs.

5) I'd need to watch the game haha. I might reinstall aoe3 and watch it this afternoon.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Hazza54321 »

spain can deal with it easily honestly, skirm rod culv, no way u can snipe the culv with rods forcing u away.
Skirms are better in a ranged fight and goons are more mobile and can run around the map doing damage, plus like diarouga said port goon +hc is a very strong combo and ofc after sending 2hcs they buy you alot of time to get factories up
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:spain can deal with it easily honestly, skirm rod culv, no way u can snipe the culv with rods forcing u away

Well you hit and run the rods. Also you just want to turtle and send mm if he comes too close, in which case mm will kill the culvs.
I don't know if it works on the EP because goons got nerfed hard, but on the RE it was ok, still losing, but just like any other option. But without the sea, so without monitors to snipe the culvs, it's indeed a lot weaker.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

I do FIs with india and sure i survive bc of 20-30 urumi, but with ports it actually looks suicide to me- no mass, no op units, can pull off if skill gap is high or your opponent makes mistake.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:I do FIs with india and sure i survive bc of 20-30 urumi, but with ports it actually looks suicide to me- no mass, no op units, can pull off if skill gap is high or your opponent makes mistake.

With Ports you're going to have 3 TCs (with CM), and a fort if needed. It's really hard to break. Honestly in most MUs surviving isn't the issue, the issue is to reach the 4th age with a decent eco.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Ashvin wrote:I do FIs with india and sure i survive bc of 20-30 urumi, but with ports it actually looks suicide to me- no mass, no op units, can pull off if skill gap is high or your opponent makes mistake.

With Ports you're going to have 3 TCs (with CM), and a fort if needed. It's really hard to break. Honestly in most MUs surviving isn't the issue, the issue is to reach the 4th age with a decent eco.

And let's say if I reach industrial with decent eco what am I supposed to do now? My opponent has all the map TP stagecoach all in all better eco and more units than me. Still goon hc?
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

I think I'll need more recs for ports turtle FI
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I just watched the game, here is what I think about it:

1) The FI doesn't have to be fast, you just want to turtle. Thus aging with 500f as breeze did is questionnable, because he had to gather a lot of wood, and skipped the TP (usually you want to research steel trap, placer mine and build a TP with the 400w). breeze was probably scared of garja's siege units, and rightfully: you're going to lose your TP to the pikes, but by the time he gets his pikes, I think the TP will be worth.

2) He walls at 4min, which is not needed at all, you want to wall just before the timing, ie at 6-7min. Furthermore, for some reasons he got the wood upgrade after steel trap, which sucks as it delays his age up...

3) Another general rule of FI builds: use the slow age up. What matters is your age up time to industrial, not to fortress, and you can always do something with the 6 skirms.

4) Fort is interesting. Usually you want to use CM but I can understand why he prefers the fort vs spain. In that case, fast age up actually makes sense. To sum it up, always use the slow age up when you FI unless you want to send the Fort first.

5) The 2 rams shipment is very questionnable. I don't think he needed more than the fort to hold, so 1000w would have been better imo, but even if he needed to kill the pikes, CM would have been more appropriate. (and in fact, the rams got sniped for nothing).

6) breeze loves to turtle and as a result he sent fortification, but that wasn't necessary lol. He killed garja's army just before. In that situation 2 heavies make a lot more sense. I'd say that unless you're facing Sioux/Russia you don't really need fortification. And since he skipped the TP (so no shipments), each shipment is very valuable and I guess it's going to delay the factories forever.

7) mill switch at 13min, that's when you see the FI failed. With a more agressive FI, he could have had 10 goons and 2 heavies by that time. And with some walls to protect the heavies from hand infantry and vills to tank, that's more than enough to hold a hunt.

8) Going for mercantilism is great. And that's really something you want to do at some point in any FI build, but after sending the 2 falcs, come on, he sent refrigeration which makes 0 sense. He just made his mill transition, and he only has 20 vills on food. 2 HCs, 8 goons, goon combat, or genitour would be better shipments here, he has to take the map back. Oh, and factories on food. Please never do that, especially not after you sent refrigeration. Another golden rule of the Port FI: Factories should be on heavy canon production.

9) His next shipment is eco theory. That's just the same, he has 51v, so it's a 5v shipment. Why would you send a 5v shipment at 16min of game while you're in age 4? Units or unit upgrades are a lot better in that situation.

10) As a result, breeze has to go full goon, and guess what? Goons suck vs skirm/rod. Imagine 4 heavies at 20 min, he would just crush the full skirm/rod of garja.

11) breeze goes full breeze with 4k food/2k wood/0 gold at 22min, and it's just game over.

Conclusion: After an ok start (it could have been much better but he was good), breeze had no plan. From what I've watched, his only play was to outboom hard and win with a ridiculous amount of goons, which simply didn't happen. Garja took the TP line and the sea and of course got a better eco, and since skirm/rod>full goon he got better fight.
In that situation, my plan would have been to take the map back (and as a result the TP line), with a goon/HC push, which would also allow me to gather food/gold on the map instead of doing a mill/plantation transition.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Jaeger »

Ashvin wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Ashvin wrote:I do FIs with india and sure i survive bc of 20-30 urumi, but with ports it actually looks suicide to me- no mass, no op units, can pull off if skill gap is high or your opponent makes mistake.

With Ports you're going to have 3 TCs (with CM), and a fort if needed. It's really hard to break. Honestly in most MUs surviving isn't the issue, the issue is to reach the 4th age with a decent eco.

And let's say if I reach industrial with decent eco what am I supposed to do now? My opponent has all the map TP stagecoach all in all better eco and more units than me. Still goon hc?


There was a game in the previous tournament, Mitoe vs Knusch where port did FI.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Here are some interesting FI recs:

viewtopic.php?t=261
Challe went for a good FI and won quite hard against India on Siberia

[RE SP] Hazza54321[GE] vs diarouga[PT] - ESOC Kamchatka.age3yrec
(954.57 KiB) Downloaded 107 times
ESOC Kamchatka
ESOC Kamchatka
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 22 minutes

Good game. Port FI vs Germany. Germany should probably win because I went too greedy (no walls, and I spread my TCs a bit too much), it still shows how strong the Port FI is (RE game)

[RE SP] Darwin_Giovanny[RU] vs setugen[PT] - Siberia.age3yrec
(683.83 KiB) Downloaded 132 times
Siberia
Siberia
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 55 minutes

setugen (a jap who used to FI almost every game) beats Darwin on Siberia. His FI builds are quite clean, although he makes a few mistakes (such as aging to the 4th age with 3goons/4vills instead of 1000c), and his macro isn't the best sometimes.

[RE SP] shmras[IR] vs setugen[PT] - Great Plains.age3yrec
(734.14 KiB) Downloaded 111 times
Great Plains
Great Plains
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: Official Patch (Legacy)
Length: 38 minutes

RE Port beating RE Iro, that's quite impressive.

[EP3-1 SP] diarouga[PT] vs 456[AZ] - ESOC Kamchatka.age3yrec
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 63 times
ESOC Kamchatka
ESOC Kamchatka
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 3.1
Length: 14 minutes

Port FI is great against Aztecs, because the rush gets molested by CM and minutemen, which means that the Aztec player has to go for an eco build (such as the rouga build, which is what garja did), and let the Port player FI for free.
Here I went for a cav start. That's bad because it delays your age up for nothing, but still, it's almost a FI.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

Thanks for that insight and recs :flowers: :love:

However not sure what's the first link about :uglylol:
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:However not sure what's the first link about :uglylol:

There was a rec there.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Hazza54321 »

I think you wouldve struggled if i played it abit slower
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:I think you wouldve struggled if i played it abit slower

Yea, you should have won this game. Now this was on the RE (ie op germany and 100f vills), and I didn't wall. On the EP I think that FI in this MU is a legit strat.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Hazza54321 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:I think you wouldve struggled if i played it abit slower

Yea, you should have won this game. Now this was on the RE (ie op germany and 100f vills), and I didn't wall. On the EP I think that FI in this MU is a legit strat.

not sure tbh, possibly, but i think making alot of uhlans in age 3 to catch ur 3rd tc is hard for you also
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

Okay I watched first three recs, and I know one thing for sure this setugen guy won against shmras just because shmras didn't push in his base, idk how could he lose the game after winning 3 consecutive battles in early industrial lol.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

Also the last rec between you and Garja is invalid for some reason :hmm:
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Jaeger »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Ashvin wrote:However not sure what's the first link about :uglylol:

There was a rec there.


Hey I have some questions for you if you have time:

Port is considered bad civ on RE, so would you say it's good civ but people just don't FI?

What civs do you think can beat port FI?

If port is good why don't we ever see it being played in tournaments?
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:Okay I watched first three recs, and I know one thing for sure this setugen guy won against shmras just because shmras didn't push in his base, idk how could he lose the game after winning 3 consecutive battles in early industrial lol.

Well, that's not a big news, Port shouldn't beat Iro on RE gp xD. Still, I think that FI might be one of the best ways. Anyway, pushing Port is always hard because he has 3 TCs with CM.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:Also the last rec between you and Garja is invalid for some reason :hmm:

Try to watch it with the EP, it worked for me.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ovi12 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Ashvin wrote:However not sure what's the first link about :uglylol:

There was a rec there.


Hey I have some questions for you if you have time:

Port is considered bad civ on RE, so would you say it's good civ but people just don't FI?

What civs do you think can beat port FI?

If port is good why don't we ever see it being played in tournaments?

1) FI isn't the magic strat which makes Port go from tier 3 to tier 1 lol. Maybe it's misleading here because I only posted recs where the Port FI wins, but it's not that strong at all.
I do think that it's a legit option considering how bad Port is on the RE (the age 2 and the semi ff both suck), but it's never going to be an easy win.

That is for the normal FI (that is to say the FI used in these games). The water FI and the ATP FI however, are very strong, and very competitive. I'd say that on maps like saguenay/Manchuria, Port is tier 1 thanks to the sea and the TP line.

2) Most civs can beat the FI tbh, unless it's a water map/big TP map.
Japan: Doesn't work unless it's a water/atp map because you'll get outboomed and outscaled.
India: It's hard to deal with the sepoys in early game (even with CM), and then the siege elephants, but if you can survive until a decent late game you'll be in a good spot.
China: Old han will slaughter your goons, and China has a good eco, and you'll get killed by mortars in middle game, so do not try it.
Aztecs: Great strat against Aztecs. They can't kill you in age 2 since CM kills pikes and maces in one hit, and all the aztec units suck vs mm. And once you're in age 4, you'll get an insane value from your units: goons outrange everything and HCs counter both maces and eagles.
Iro: On the RE of course it doesn't work, but on the EP it's ok
Sioux: I'd say that the Port FI counters Sioux quite well.
Otto: If you can build your fort, you should be fine, but it's going to be hard... I think playing age 3 is much safer in this MU.
Spain: It's quite hard to hold the pike/falc timing, but again, if you can build your fort, you should be fine.
Dutch: Good strat vs dutch because they can't pressure you, and you'll get a good late game.
France: If you put the fort you should hold the falc timing. After that the game will go in late game, and unless you play very well, the French player will get more eco and a lot of skirms so it's not easy. It can work though.
Germany: Same, the uhlans are tough to deal with, and you'll most likely get outboomed.
Brit: Well, no :P
Russia: You need to hold the rush (with CM, maybe even towers), and make sure you don't get outboomed which is hard in middle game. But if you can reach a good late game, huss/goon/HC will do the job.
Port: It might not be the standard strat because you don't get the map, but it can definitely work

All in all, unless it's a water/TP map, it works well against Aztecs/Sioux/Dutch, it's ok vs India/Iro/Spain/France/Germany/Russia, but you shouldn't go for it in other match ups.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

I did it against Sioux and results were satisfying. Although HC don't blow now riders as they do to skirms but I still managed to win two times.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ashvin wrote:I did it against Sioux and results were satisfying. Although HC don't blow now riders as they do to skirms but I still managed to win two times.

Sioux can't kill your HCs because they're behind a wall (you should use bastion in this MU because Sioux can't counter walls and towers), and their dps is high, even against bow riders, and then you have goons.
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Re: Garja's Spain v Breeze's Ports FI on hudson bay

Post by Ashvin »

I didn't wall lol(should have done that) but 3tcs were together with a fort and I snowballed 26-30 goons and 4-5 HCs
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