Esoc Patch v5 balance poll

[zoom]

No we shouldnt as current results are not indicative of real power of civs. And in general it's stupid to make balance decisions prior to tourneys based on poll when a reasonable number of voters could just troll the results.

They cannot. Goodspeed checks for that.

[zoom]

India is indeed strong and probably is the top civ because of the number of MUs they potentially win.
But on what exactly is the India nerf claim based?
Also what would you nerf? +20w houses again?

That seems one sensible option.

[edeholland]

I think the weekend tours already showed that india is a strong civ though

yes. That's also a good side-effect of those minor tournaments, to actually see what changes need to be done for a major tournament, but apparently we still do "testing" in autumn tournament

Testing will never stop until we have a final version of EP.. How can we stop testing during a tournament?

[ChewSick]

I think the weekend tours already showed that india is a strong civ though

yes. That's also a good side-effect of those minor tournaments, to actually see what changes need to be done for a major tournament, but apparently we still do "testing" in autumn tournament

Testing will never stop until we have a final version of EP.. How can we stop testing during a tournament?

that's not what i'm saying. there have been many minor tournaments that should have been used for a balance change before autumn tournament

[Garja]

India is indeed strong and probably is the top civ because of the number of MUs they potentially win.
But on what exactly is the India nerf claim based?
Also what would you nerf? +20w houses again?

That seems one sensible option.

Indeed. That would make India a net -10hp on sepoy from RE patch. I'm not too sure that means balance. But more importantly I'm not sure if people who vote have a fuckin clue then because when India was buffed everyone was saying it was slow and weak.
Maybe, but just maybe, we should stop ignoring polls and just give time to people to actually play the game and learn what's strong and what's not.

[macacoalbino]

Tbh I think balance should be weighed by tourney performance in the latest rounds. But a poll is useful to estimulate discussion and gives us points of attention to observe in the real games. Good job!

[rsy]

ahaha I stop playing ep games with india and people's opinion on india's strength sudenly goes way up. Tells you just how bad I am at the game!

[Goodspeed]

Show hidden quotes

I think the weekend tours already showed that india is a strong civ though

yes. That's also a good side-effect of those minor tournaments, to actually see what changes need to be done for a major tournament, but apparently we still do "testing" in autumn tournament

Testing will never stop until we have a final version of EP.. How can we stop testing during a tournament?

that's not what i'm saying. there have been many minor tournaments that should have been used for a balance change before autumn tournament

They were used to shape opinion on the state of balance. We shouldn't make changes as soon as we think something is slightly too strong. The patch will go all over the place then, and we will be making a lot of wrong decisions based on the latest change in the meta.

[Garja]

They were used to shape opinion on the state of balance. We shouldn't make changes as soon as we think something is slightly too strong. The patch will go all over the place then, and we will be making a lot of wrong decisions based on the latest change of mood.

fixed

[Goodspeed]

I guess, in this context, meta is just another word for mood.

[zoom]

India is indeed strong and probably is the top civ because of the number of MUs they potentially win.
But on what exactly is the India nerf claim based?
Also what would you nerf? +20w houses again?

That seems one sensible option.

Indeed. That would make India a net -10hp on sepoy from RE patch. I'm not too sure that means balance. But more importantly I'm not sure if people who vote have a fuckin clue then because when India was buffed everyone was saying it was slow and weak.
Maybe, but just maybe, we should stop ignoring polls and just give time to people to actually play the game and learn what's strong and what's not.

Exactly. The fewer changes with better balance the better. We should definitely stop ignoring polls. It's important to keep in mind their limitations and remain critical, though.

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

India is indeed strong and probably is the top civ because of the number of MUs they potentially win.
But on what exactly is the India nerf claim based?
Also what would you nerf? +20w houses again?

That seems one sensible option.

Indeed. That would make India a net -10hp on sepoy from RE patch. I'm not too sure that means balance. But more importantly I'm not sure if people who vote have a fuckin clue then because when India was buffed everyone was saying it was slow and weak.
Maybe, but just maybe, we should stop ignoring polls and just give time to people to actually play the game and learn what's strong and what's not.

Exactly. The fewer changes with better balance the better. We should definitely stop ignoring polls. It's important to keep in mind their limitations and remain critical, though.

Realistically, the only difference will be the point in time at which the nerf is applied. The big benefits of doing it prior to the event are that you'll gather data on results from it, and that the quality of the event will improve.

[Garja]

Are you insisting to bait an answer? Realistically the poll is fairly inaccurate. India is not that much of an outlier. So the nerf is questionable in the first place.

[almalek]

lol good thread..

What's the issue sir?

this sioux seems underated, france is highly underated, ports overated, spanish underated..

[Goodspeed]

How does Japan do against India after the changes? To me that always seemed like a very good MU for Japan

[Hazza54321]

i always thought it was a bad MU for jap

[Goodspeed]

How does India punish Jap's boom, even now? Sepoy rush is laughable especially now that they get 2-hit by TC, and anything else is too slow. Jap just gets to build 20 shrines and is barely slower to fortress than India.
Or are you staying colonial? How are you beating their units in the long run, then?

[Hazza54321]

colonial sepoy rush into sowar gurkha, mix zamb if he nagis

[Hazza54321]

all of indias units are hard counters

[deleted_user0]

india has no counter to yumi lol. in fact, yumi hard counter sowars!

[Goodspeed]

colonial sepoy rush into sowar gurkha, mix zamb if he nagis

I really don't see that working.
One of the last games I played in AoE3 was a tourney game against Lukas where he did that and it didn't do nearly enough damage. I didn't even wall iirc. Maybe he was just slow but still, with walls and a TC 2-hitting sepoy I can't imagine that being your best option.

[Garja]

It used to work 100% and it still does actually vs most players. Defo it used to be an India favored MU regardless of specific build.
Mitoe send 5ashi and uses jap cons with shinobi. That holds rushes in 80% of cases with perfect defense but it probably loses to more basic stuff like making units and sieging shrines.
Kynesie walls all the map and that's increases Japan chances to win. Still beatable I'd say.
There is however another Jap build idea that I'm testing which might solve the India problem too.
Jap are super underrated. There is no way they're in the last spot. There are simple a number of civs that are currently objectively worse and even traditionally hard MUs should be reconsidered.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Kynesie's way (yumi/wall semi ff) should beat India consistently. However, very few players build walls (and with the EP nerf you might need 3-4 layers), so in the end it doesn't really matter.

[Djigit]

Wouldn't CM be even more viable considering the sepoy nerf?

[yemshi]

What does Cm give you? You still two shot.