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Uzbekistan DjinnOfSorrow
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Location: USA

16 Aug 2018, 19:18

lordraphael wrote:
DjinnOfSorrow wrote:
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And how many tps, thats always bugged me. Removes the point of scouting, well some.

1. I mean its already pretty much impossible to do some proxy strats because of how small maps are and also because theres not really any super surprising units that can be made, unlike in sc2, but add free information over decks score and tp to that and it becomes completly impossible

1. The amount of information given to the opponent makes it fairly impossible to be suprising even if their explorer never leaves the tc area. A native rush you typically can spot several minutes before hand, an otto taking the whole trade route though I'm not sure at that point you can really react but it is just a lot of free info. I mean at that point all you do not know is the exact amount of vils and if he went sea which you can figure out from the score.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Location: France

16 Aug 2018, 20:58

I'd say it's not very relevant most of the time.
However, in tourney preparation it's probably smart to check the deck's names and the deck in game because it just takes 5 sec and it can sometimes help you.
"Everyone knows that blowing infantry to shreds with heavy cannons is the most satisfying way to win." Boneng
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 8351

17 Aug 2018, 06:35

lordraphael wrote:
DjinnOfSorrow wrote:
Show hidden quotes

And how many tps, thats always bugged me. Removes the point of scouting, well some.

1. I mean its already pretty much impossible to do some proxy strats because of how small maps are and also because theres not really any super surprising units that can be made, unlike in sc2, but add free information over decks score and tp to that and it becomes completly impossible


yea, if you couldnt check decks and you couldnt see tp counters, then suddenly native tp rushes would become much more viable. atm you just immediately know its coming by tp + deck, so you won't fb and stuff.
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Netherlands momuuu
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17 Aug 2018, 11:03

ovi12 wrote:It's hard to say because I would pay different things in different situations. I would say 100 resources would be a maximum most of the time; maybe in some extreme situations up to 200, but that would be really pushing it.

I think I would do more risky strats; whenever I pick an FI deck, I feel very insecure because I feel like the enemy can just take one look at my deck and go "ok I know what's going on", so I am hoping he just doesn't check.

200 is an outrageous cost for how little scouting information you actually get from it. Even 100 (thus one unit) is probably too much.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Sweden Gendarme
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17 Aug 2018, 11:05

I'd pay 2000 resources if my opponent is Aizamk.
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duck wrote:man it really sucks when you have to agree with gendarme on things
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Uzbekistan DjinnOfSorrow
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Location: USA

17 Aug 2018, 12:04

Gendarme wrote:I'd pay 2000 resources if my opponent is Aizamk.

Maybe, but as britts all you have to see is the tp and you know its vc and 3 vils age 1. I'll be honest I am guilty of rarely checking my opponents deck but when I do it is usually the same, all ff agenda while I plan on trapping them in age 2 and burning through their resources.
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No Flag ovi12
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17 Aug 2018, 17:15

momuuu wrote:
ovi12 wrote:It's hard to say because I would pay different things in different situations. I would say 100 resources would be a maximum most of the time; maybe in some extreme situations up to 200, but that would be really pushing it.

I think I would do more risky strats; whenever I pick an FI deck, I feel very insecure because I feel like the enemy can just take one look at my deck and go "ok I know what's going on", so I am hoping he just doesn't check.

200 is an outrageous cost for how little scouting information you actually get from it. Even 100 (thus one unit) is probably too much.


Well the game can be decided on one shipment, so I think it can be worth a lot to check if the opponent has that shipment. For example, you are playing against port and he has mills in his base. You know you can win the game by just poking or standing on top of his mills all the time, but to do so you've gotta go between TC's a little bit. At that point I would really want to know if he has ronin in his deck.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
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Finland somppukunkku
Howdah
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Posts: 1795

17 Aug 2018, 17:16

I read "Importance of seeing oppenent's dick"

is this completely healthy and normal?
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When I win, it's with homo, illegal and wrong strats.
Cyprus Snuden
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Location: ESOC Crypto Corner!

17 Aug 2018, 17:26

Attempting to put homo's in a negative light!
36: This herd, was not herded correctly towards his town center
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Austria supahons
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ESO: supahons

17 Aug 2018, 19:41

Your subconscious just wants to tell you something ...
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Brazil macacoalbino
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ESO: MacacoAlbino

17 Aug 2018, 22:12

At least as is we can’t see the decks name :uglylol:
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Canada Mitoe
ESOC Media Team
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17 Aug 2018, 22:38

I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless you’re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. I’d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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25 Aug 2018, 09:41

I like the ming game with scores sometimes though
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United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
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ESO: n0eL

27 Aug 2018, 15:24

Come on EP team. Remove ability to see deck and tp and native icons.
United States of America godzillaking
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Posts: 133

27 Aug 2018, 17:15

Do the resources go to the opponent?
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Netherlands momuuu
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Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

27 Aug 2018, 17:17

Mitoe wrote:I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless you’re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. I’d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.

Its funny how this post is phrased. You state things as if they are arguments even though they are just statements. Why would it necessarily be better that you have fewer scouting information?

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Germany Lukas_L99
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27 Aug 2018, 17:41

momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless you’re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. I’d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.

Its funny how this post is phrased. You state things as if they are arguments even though they are just statements. Why would it necessarily be better that you have fewer scouting information?


Cause you gotta scout more to get these information instead of having an idle
Scout and just checking the deck, scores and TPs top right. More stuff you need to pay attention to.
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Netherlands momuuu
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27 Aug 2018, 17:58

Lukas_L99 wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I have to agree with Raphael, I think. The game would be better off without the free information. The only information you should receive for free is what age your opponent is in, and only because that could become very difficult to scout unless you’re playing vs an Asian civ.

It would definitely improve the level of player interaction in the early game, though. I’d be far more willing to go out of my way to deny my opponent more information than I currently am right now, and also to invest in scouts and stealth units on occasion.

Its funny how this post is phrased. You state things as if they are arguments even though they are just statements. Why would it necessarily be better that you have fewer scouting information?


Cause you gotta scout more to get these information instead of having an idle
Scout and just checking the deck, scores and TPs top right. More stuff you need to pay attention to.

That's a load of nonsense isn't it? It's not even an argument and it's also not correct in any case...

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Germany Lukas_L99
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27 Aug 2018, 18:02

momuuu wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Cause you gotta scout more to get these information instead of having an idle
Scout and just checking the deck, scores and TPs top right. More stuff you need to pay attention to.

That's a load of nonsense isn't it? It's not even an argument and it's also not correct in any case...


What? Of course it’s an argument to make people be less lazy and scout what the opponent is doing instead of checking it in 3 seconds when looking at the top right.
As others said, nat rushes for example would be way more viable.
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Netherlands momuuu
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Location: Utrecht, The Netherlands

27 Aug 2018, 19:47

Why is it per definition good that scouting is harder? That seems like a statement that requires some logic before I'd mindlessly accept it.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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27 Aug 2018, 20:29

the harder the game the more competitive it gets, and the more competitive the better.
However this game has several flaws and those facilitations are there for a reason
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Netherlands momuuu
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27 Aug 2018, 20:33

Garja wrote:the harder the game the more competitive it gets, and the more competitive the better.
However this game has several flaws and those facilitations are there for a reason

In a game where scouting is extremely hard you'd risk coin flips over skill, so your argument is not actually true.

spoiler

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy
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United States of America dicktator_
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Posts: 883

27 Aug 2018, 21:36

I think removing the free info would be good for strat diversity like others said. We'd see more nat rushes and FIs. Also I feel like it's possible to be decent/good even with dogshit scouting (my scouting is dogshit for example) because of all the free info and I think that shouldn't be the case in an rts game.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
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Italy Garja
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27 Aug 2018, 22:20

momuuu wrote:
Garja wrote:the harder the game the more competitive it gets, and the more competitive the better.
However this game has several flaws and those facilitations are there for a reason

In a game where scouting is extremely hard you'd risk coin flips over skill, so your argument is not actually true.

spoiler

Yes there is that risk, see sc2 proxy stuff that can be fatal if not scouted. Point is in sc2 you can expect that stuff, maps are static, workers are relatively strong defenders, you can use static defense, etc. In AOE3 if you can't scout a rush you only have TC and mm, vills don't do much and outposts are not rly an option if you're already under pressure. Also, if you don't have an idea of what opponent has on the field (no score) you can very well lose your army and that's insta gg in AOE3. You just need some info. I'm sure there are other examples.

I read the spoiler, I'm not gonna comment on that :dry:
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Netherlands momuuu
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27 Aug 2018, 23:01

I seriously wonder what mechanics aoe3 has in place to make scouting actually skillful and interesting rather than a coin flip mechanic. Scouting for trading posts is boring because you either get lucky seeing one or you waste time and miss scouting the base. Seeing a deck means you know whether or not someone is doing something crazy or going for water. Those things can easily be missed by simply bad luck and lose you the game. Seeing the score hardly gives information at all, although it might guide you a bit in chaotic situations.

Aoe3 hardly has any mechanics in place to make scouting possible. Any army movement is relatively all in due to the snaring and otherwise there is basically no way to get intel properly. In sc2 they introduced reasonably afforable scouting tools that you can invest in (overlords/zergling scouts, adepts/observers and scans) and even there rock-paper-scizor match ups happen a lot. Is introducing a mechanic that basically brings build order losses and luck to the game a good mechanic? Yes it introduces a new skill too, but is aoe3 capable of making that skill fun? I honestly doubt it.

"When life give you incompetence, participate in the betting" - Jerom, winner of autumn betting, 2016
"but wer eyiu playig a gainst someone as magnificent as jerom? thats wha ti thogutb jerom is a beaaitful human being"- Mr_Bramboy

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