Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by n0el »

Since you want an argument. One would be that having to use your hero to scout would require you to forgo treasure hunting. That would make it more strategically interesting.

I personally donā€™t buy the coin flip arguement. I feel like deck picking is already a bit of a coin flip situation.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Mitoe »

Sorry Jerom, but I don't really think you thought this through very thoroughly.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Sorry Jerom, but I don't really think you thought this through very thoroughly.

Good argument
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Ashvin »

Gendarme wrote:I'd pay 2000 resources if my opponent is Aizamk.

You'd lose anyway
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

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Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Sorry Jerom, but I don't really think you thought this through very thoroughly.

Good argument
Considering that a very large portion of your previous post is just factually incorrect it doesn't even need to be argued against, just as someone claiming the earth is flat doesn't need to be argued against, simply just dismissed.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by momuuu »

ESOC Discussing. Why would one even bother..
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Ashvin »

why would you bother...
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Gendarme »

Who is your brother...
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by gh0st »

Why would you, brother
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by oxaloacetate »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Sorry Jerom, but I don't really think you thought this through very thoroughly.

Good argument
Considering that a very large portion of your previous post is just factually incorrect it doesn't even need to be argued against, just as someone claiming the earth is flat doesn't need to be argued against, simply just dismissed.


Why don't you clarify what is factually incorrect? "A very large portion" isn't very helpful.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by Hazza54321 »

There is something called reviving your hero which not alot of people do despite being a good unit. Using a low hp inf unit to scout is also rare.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by deleted_user0 »

I dont think its weird to assume to game in its current state isnt hospitable to not seeing someones deck. Its a pretty big change, but im sure that with some minor tweaks (like making scout units or spies easier accessible, and perhaps eliminating the tc as means of detection, or some other tweaks, i'm sure that no deck vision wouldnt pose any gamebreaking difficulties.

Besides spies, its possible to scout with low hp or cheap units as well as explorers, even though its probably more expensive.

Sc2 had more means of cheap scouting maybe, but bases were only accessible via predictable routes. Scanning costs quite a lot of res (in the form of missing a mule) so scouting is easier there i guess, but also easier to deflect.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

The biggest difference between aoe and sc2 is the explorer I'd say.
In sc2 you don't have an explorer at the start of the game so if you want to scout for proxy strats or greedy builds, you need to send a worker to scout (which is now standard in some MUs). Later in the game, terran players have scans (which only scout a relatively small area of the map and are super expensive, about 250 minerals iirc which would probably be like 300f in aoe3), zerg players have overlords, but to scout your opponent's base you need to waste one ie 100 minerals (so something like 150f and this every time you want to scout) and protoss have observers who come very late, cost 1 population and cost 25minerals/75gas (ie like 100+ wood).

My point is that in sc2, scouting is always expensive, and that it can be denied. If you hide a building, the scan might miss it, and you can make sure you kill the observers/overlords before they see it, while in aoe3 on top of all the free information you have (score, age, deck, TPs), it's super easy to scout: just send one huss and you can see everything since your base can't really be walled.

Imo score, age and deck should all be hidden because it gives you free information. Only TPs shouldn't be secret because it would mess up a lot of things.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by deleted_user0 »

I think tp's should be hidden, at least native tps, until you start the trade monopoly timer. If that starts, the tp's should be shown.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by macacoalbino »

I think if there was no free information that would favor cav semis even more since cav units are the ones that can go in scout and come back safely
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:I think tp's should be hidden, at least native tps, until you start the trade monopoly timer. If that starts, the tp's should be shown.

Imo eco TPs shouldn't be hidden. You need to know if your opponent is going stagecoach (or else it should be nerfed because it's op) and how many TPs left you have. I don't care about native TP though.
I think the idea is that in nilla, natives were op, and you really needed to know if your opponent was going for a super fast rush, but with the new maps, native nerfs etc it isn't relevant anymore.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by deleted_user0 »

maybe, but with the tps being always in the same place, they are super easy to scout, so it's not really like the only way to find out if someone is going nats or stagecoach is by the symbols. The first way you check for nats is simply by deck, but that's not always useful, and if we can't check deck anymore, which imo would be a good addition to the game, then you can still check by scouting. In fact, a thing I always do is to build with my explorer until it's like 99% finished, then I wait until I hit age2 before I finish it. So you only know I'm nats until i'm already training them.

You can check for stagecoach just by using your explorer, first units, or, if it's that important, by using a villager (just like in sc2)
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:maybe, but with the tps being always in the same place, they are super easy to scout, so it's not really like the only way to find out if someone is going nats or stagecoach is by the symbols. The first way you check for nats is simply by deck, but that's not always useful, and if we can't check deck anymore, which imo would be a good addition to the game, then you can still check by scouting. In fact, a thing I always do is to build with my explorer until it's like 99% finished, then I wait until I hit age2 before I finish it. So you only know I'm nats until i'm already training them.

You can check for stagecoach just by using your explorer, first units, or, if it's that important, by using a villager (just like in sc2)

That's what you should do with native TPs for sure.
About stagecoach, the real issue is that the number of TP is limited tbh.
Of course you can scout, but 5 sec too early and you miss the information, and 5 sec too late, and well, he's building the TP and you can't steal it. And it's not like there's a "TP timing", it totally depends on treasures, age 1, explorer position etc, so in the end not giving the information would be very random and the way TPs work is already super random.
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Re: Importance of seeing oppenent's deck

Post by deleted_user0 »

maybe, i'm ok with leaving normal tps as a symbol.

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