Age 2 Dragoons
- Sargsyan
- Jaeger
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
I just played 2 games against Sioux and i can confirm goons are better when u kite
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
Yea, also you have to keep in mind that thanks to the wc (as long as you don't lose him), brs are faster.
Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
Yea, also you have to keep in mind that thanks to the wc (as long as you don't lose him), brs are faster.
Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
Re: Age 2 Dragoons
Yea, also you have to keep in mind that thanks to the wc (as long as you don't lose him), brs are faster.
Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
Pay more attention to detail.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
When you beat a guy and hes surprised of your strong play (for your PR strong) and says "nice smurf" even though you arent smurfing...my respond always: "thank you for the compliment"
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
Gendarme wrote:Ego post
maybe I wanted to share my hapiness about someone calling me a smurf with you... :(
or did I just beat you???
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
momuuu wrote:duckzilla wrote:Show hidden quotes
It is a common misconception, but there is no such thing as "ranged hp", since the range resistance is a multiplier for the opponents dmg, not one for the unit's own hp. Assuming "ranged HP" of 260, it would take 13 bow rider shots to kill a dragoon. In reality, dragoons are significantly better than indicated by you.
Bow riders do 20 * 0.7 = 14 dmg per hit to dragoons, dragoons do 22 dmg per hit to bow riders. To kill a dragoon (200HP) with bow riders, you need 15 hits, while it takes 12 hits to kill a bow rider (250 HP) with a dragoon. While bow riders have an advantage regarding rate of fire, dragoons have the advantage of being able to kite due to shooting instantly without loading animation.
I draw the following conclusions: (a) when microing perfectly, dragoons are significantly stronger than bow riders, (b) with realistic microing effort, dragoons are slightly stronger than bow riders, (c) without micro, bow riders are significantly stronger than dragoons.
Hence, bow riders are the classical noob unit.
Ah, that's interesting. I still disagree with your conclusions though. When microing perfectly in an infinite map with nothing else on the maps, dragoons are stronger than bow riders (note they do cost slightly more too). When in any realistic situation, you can't actually micro 'perfectly' on your finite map. You can't endlessly kite bow riders that are killing your villagers, hell I think it'd be really hard to even kite bow riders properly to the point where they'd only get one shot off. Realistically, I'd take on H2O in a sioux mirror with bow riders against his goons any time of the day, and I think any good player would make that choice too.
In a realistic situation youre gonna have more goons and the defenders advantage, usually in the form of tc's, towers, walls or even tanking vils. Honestly the micro argument is moot in the case of goon vs br, and only makes sense if you have to defend skirms or cannons vs handcav while the br deal damage from the backline.
Re: Age 2 Dragoons
umeu wrote:momuuu wrote:Show hidden quotes
Ah, that's interesting. I still disagree with your conclusions though. When microing perfectly in an infinite map with nothing else on the maps, dragoons are stronger than bow riders (note they do cost slightly more too). When in any realistic situation, you can't actually micro 'perfectly' on your finite map. You can't endlessly kite bow riders that are killing your villagers, hell I think it'd be really hard to even kite bow riders properly to the point where they'd only get one shot off. Realistically, I'd take on H2O in a sioux mirror with bow riders against his goons any time of the day, and I think any good player would make that choice too.
In a realistic situation youre gonna have more goons and the defenders advantage, usually in the form of tc's, towers, walls or even tanking vils. Honestly the micro argument is moot in the case of goon vs br, and only makes sense if you have to defend skirms or cannons vs handcav while the br deal damage from the backline.
But thats entirely irrelevant. If someone asks you how to counter hussars would you answer skirms because in a realistic situation you would have more skirms, walls, defenders advantage etc so your skirms would be a counter to the hussars? Because that seems like a downright silly line of arguing. Claiming that goons can't endlessly kite however seems very reasonable, as you usually can't kite endlessly due to having to protect villagers or just reaching the end of the map.
Honestly you should compare the goon ability to kite bow riders to their ability to kite rods, Theoretically goons can endlessly kite rodeleros, however in practise goons aren't necessarily a counter to rodeleros - they do okay for as long as they can kite but eventually you'll have to deal with running out of kiting space or getting flanked somehow. The difference with goons vs bow riders is that the kiting doesn't result in free shots but actually in tiny barely favorable trades - one round of kiting probably gives you ~10 shots traded with bow riders only firing a single volley back, for a net total of less than 1 free shot. That means that in mass bow rider vs mass goon you're doing the equivalent of kiting a big mass of melee units with one goon.
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- Ninja
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
Once you kill the explorer, its not that hard at all, as dragoons have more base speed than BR. You just focus the hero and voila.
If what you say about skirs would be frequently true, then it actually wouldnt be silly at all. But its not true. Theres no reason why youd have more skirs than huss per value to the point where it matters, while this is frequently the case for goon civs which tend to have strong eco compared to sioux. Taking pathing into account when talking about ranged infantry vs cav is actually a very valid point, as its one of the main reasons cav isnt as effective as it often should be.
And i don't think the kite argument brings anything to discussion, because nobody is going to chase for a long time while getting free losses while kited. You don't have kite infinitely for it to be effective.
If you're going to make it "realistic" by saying well the fact goons can kite doesnt matter because at some point you must fight for your vils, then you disregard that while you were kiting back, you probably killed 2-3 br for free (easily possible when you get arsenal up anyway) + your on top of your reinforcements. Thats a very selective realism, and thus not very realistic at all, which was my point
Mass goons do fine vs rods, its simply that no one ever goes pure rods. Ppl do go pure br. And the spain player outmasses earlier, which is why it works because you can flank and snare. The br player usually doesnt outmass.
I agree that this isnt relevant when you ask just what counters something, but those type of arguments only show a part of the picture. Sure, in even numbers, in a straight up fight br outperform goons i guess, per cost at least. But to say that goons are bad vs br, or even weirder that you shouldnt make goons vs a br player is just nonsense.
Mass Goons give you the mobility you need to deal with sioux cav, and it allows you to be the one to choose battles, instead of solely the sioux player. Sure, goons are not the counter to br, but they are the best unit at countering sioux as a civ in its totality. Ofc skirs is better vs br, or even mass musk. But then you give up mobility which is often fatal.
If what you say about skirs would be frequently true, then it actually wouldnt be silly at all. But its not true. Theres no reason why youd have more skirs than huss per value to the point where it matters, while this is frequently the case for goon civs which tend to have strong eco compared to sioux. Taking pathing into account when talking about ranged infantry vs cav is actually a very valid point, as its one of the main reasons cav isnt as effective as it often should be.
And i don't think the kite argument brings anything to discussion, because nobody is going to chase for a long time while getting free losses while kited. You don't have kite infinitely for it to be effective.
If you're going to make it "realistic" by saying well the fact goons can kite doesnt matter because at some point you must fight for your vils, then you disregard that while you were kiting back, you probably killed 2-3 br for free (easily possible when you get arsenal up anyway) + your on top of your reinforcements. Thats a very selective realism, and thus not very realistic at all, which was my point
Mass goons do fine vs rods, its simply that no one ever goes pure rods. Ppl do go pure br. And the spain player outmasses earlier, which is why it works because you can flank and snare. The br player usually doesnt outmass.
I agree that this isnt relevant when you ask just what counters something, but those type of arguments only show a part of the picture. Sure, in even numbers, in a straight up fight br outperform goons i guess, per cost at least. But to say that goons are bad vs br, or even weirder that you shouldnt make goons vs a br player is just nonsense.
Mass Goons give you the mobility you need to deal with sioux cav, and it allows you to be the one to choose battles, instead of solely the sioux player. Sure, goons are not the counter to br, but they are the best unit at countering sioux as a civ in its totality. Ofc skirs is better vs br, or even mass musk. But then you give up mobility which is often fatal.
Re: Age 2 Dragoons
My point is that BR will most likely return the shot back everytime goons stop to shoot. Actually 2 shots most likely.
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- Ninja
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Re: Age 2 Dragoons
Depends on the angle, and 2 shots is unlikely because of the animation. Anyway, if u go goon vs br u should get arsenal asap
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