Age 2 Dragoons

User avatar
Armenia Sargsyan
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 3372
Joined: Dec 18, 2017
ESO: lamergamer
Location: North Macedonia
Clan: c0ns

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by Sargsyan »

I just played 2 games against Sioux and i can confirm goons are better when u kite
krichk wrote:For some reason, you want the world to know that you're brave enough to challenge Challenger_Marco
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, also you have to keep in mind that thanks to the wc (as long as you don't lose him), brs are faster.

Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, also you have to keep in mind that thanks to the wc (as long as you don't lose him), brs are faster.

Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by Gendarme »

Yea, also you have to keep in mind that thanks to the wc (as long as you don't lose him), brs are faster.

Furthermore, you can actually micro your brs (No way!), and send like 5 to hand combat and make sure the goons can't escape.
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

  • Quote

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

When you beat a guy and hes surprised of your strong play (for your PR strong) and says "nice smurf" even though you arent smurfing...my respond always: "thank you for the compliment" :mrgreen:
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by Gendarme »

Ego post
Pay more attention to detail.
Czech Republic Googol
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1728
Joined: Jan 12, 2017
ESO: Butifle
Location: Central Bohemia

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by Googol »

Holy shitpost
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

  • Quote

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Gendarme wrote:Ego post

maybe I wanted to share my hapiness about someone calling me a smurf with you... :(

or did I just beat you??? :hmm: :biggrin:
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by deleted_user0 »

momuuu wrote:
duckzilla wrote:
Show hidden quotes


It is a common misconception, but there is no such thing as "ranged hp", since the range resistance is a multiplier for the opponents dmg, not one for the unit's own hp. Assuming "ranged HP" of 260, it would take 13 bow rider shots to kill a dragoon. In reality, dragoons are significantly better than indicated by you.

Bow riders do 20 * 0.7 = 14 dmg per hit to dragoons, dragoons do 22 dmg per hit to bow riders. To kill a dragoon (200HP) with bow riders, you need 15 hits, while it takes 12 hits to kill a bow rider (250 HP) with a dragoon. While bow riders have an advantage regarding rate of fire, dragoons have the advantage of being able to kite due to shooting instantly without loading animation.

I draw the following conclusions: (a) when microing perfectly, dragoons are significantly stronger than bow riders, (b) with realistic microing effort, dragoons are slightly stronger than bow riders, (c) without micro, bow riders are significantly stronger than dragoons.
Hence, bow riders are the classical noob unit.

Ah, that's interesting. I still disagree with your conclusions though. When microing perfectly in an infinite map with nothing else on the maps, dragoons are stronger than bow riders (note they do cost slightly more too). When in any realistic situation, you can't actually micro 'perfectly' on your finite map. You can't endlessly kite bow riders that are killing your villagers, hell I think it'd be really hard to even kite bow riders properly to the point where they'd only get one shot off. Realistically, I'd take on H2O in a sioux mirror with bow riders against his goons any time of the day, and I think any good player would make that choice too.


In a realistic situation youre gonna have more goons and the defenders advantage, usually in the form of tc's, towers, walls or even tanking vils. Honestly the micro argument is moot in the case of goon vs br, and only makes sense if you have to defend skirms or cannons vs handcav while the br deal damage from the backline.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Ah, that's interesting. I still disagree with your conclusions though. When microing perfectly in an infinite map with nothing else on the maps, dragoons are stronger than bow riders (note they do cost slightly more too). When in any realistic situation, you can't actually micro 'perfectly' on your finite map. You can't endlessly kite bow riders that are killing your villagers, hell I think it'd be really hard to even kite bow riders properly to the point where they'd only get one shot off. Realistically, I'd take on H2O in a sioux mirror with bow riders against his goons any time of the day, and I think any good player would make that choice too.


In a realistic situation youre gonna have more goons and the defenders advantage, usually in the form of tc's, towers, walls or even tanking vils. Honestly the micro argument is moot in the case of goon vs br, and only makes sense if you have to defend skirms or cannons vs handcav while the br deal damage from the backline.

But thats entirely irrelevant. If someone asks you how to counter hussars would you answer skirms because in a realistic situation you would have more skirms, walls, defenders advantage etc so your skirms would be a counter to the hussars? Because that seems like a downright silly line of arguing. Claiming that goons can't endlessly kite however seems very reasonable, as you usually can't kite endlessly due to having to protect villagers or just reaching the end of the map.

Honestly you should compare the goon ability to kite bow riders to their ability to kite rods, Theoretically goons can endlessly kite rodeleros, however in practise goons aren't necessarily a counter to rodeleros - they do okay for as long as they can kite but eventually you'll have to deal with running out of kiting space or getting flanked somehow. The difference with goons vs bow riders is that the kiting doesn't result in free shots but actually in tiny barely favorable trades - one round of kiting probably gives you ~10 shots traded with bow riders only firing a single volley back, for a net total of less than 1 free shot. That means that in mass bow rider vs mass goon you're doing the equivalent of kiting a big mass of melee units with one goon.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by Garja »

It's hard to kite BR even with infinite map, unless you sent jinete card
Image Image Image
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by deleted_user0 »

Once you kill the explorer, its not that hard at all, as dragoons have more base speed than BR. You just focus the hero and voila.

If what you say about skirs would be frequently true, then it actually wouldnt be silly at all. But its not true. Theres no reason why youd have more skirs than huss per value to the point where it matters, while this is frequently the case for goon civs which tend to have strong eco compared to sioux. Taking pathing into account when talking about ranged infantry vs cav is actually a very valid point, as its one of the main reasons cav isnt as effective as it often should be.

And i don't think the kite argument brings anything to discussion, because nobody is going to chase for a long time while getting free losses while kited. You don't have kite infinitely for it to be effective.

If you're going to make it "realistic" by saying well the fact goons can kite doesnt matter because at some point you must fight for your vils, then you disregard that while you were kiting back, you probably killed 2-3 br for free (easily possible when you get arsenal up anyway) + your on top of your reinforcements. Thats a very selective realism, and thus not very realistic at all, which was my point

Mass goons do fine vs rods, its simply that no one ever goes pure rods. Ppl do go pure br. And the spain player outmasses earlier, which is why it works because you can flank and snare. The br player usually doesnt outmass.

I agree that this isnt relevant when you ask just what counters something, but those type of arguments only show a part of the picture. Sure, in even numbers, in a straight up fight br outperform goons i guess, per cost at least. But to say that goons are bad vs br, or even weirder that you shouldnt make goons vs a br player is just nonsense.

Mass Goons give you the mobility you need to deal with sioux cav, and it allows you to be the one to choose battles, instead of solely the sioux player. Sure, goons are not the counter to br, but they are the best unit at countering sioux as a civ in its totality. Ofc skirs is better vs br, or even mass musk. But then you give up mobility which is often fatal.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by Garja »

My point is that BR will most likely return the shot back everytime goons stop to shoot. Actually 2 shots most likely.
Image Image Image
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Age 2 Dragoons

Post by deleted_user0 »

Depends on the angle, and 2 shots is unlikely because of the animation. Anyway, if u go goon vs br u should get arsenal asap

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV