ESOCTV on YouTube

[momuuu]

A much more active management of the twitch to YouTube porting will require quite a bit more manpower.

The only thing that needs to be done is actually not purposely delaying uploads..

[Mr_Bramboy]

I think they intentionally delay uploads to have a constant stream of "new" content.

No they're just lazy

A much more active management of the twitch to YouTube porting will require quite a bit more manpower.

The only thing that needs to be done is actually not purposely delaying uploads..

That's your opinion, not a fact. The youtube channel exists for all audiences, and unfortunately for you, the hardcore audience is not the biggest share, though the forums might make you believe otherwise since that's where the hardcore fanbase is most prominent.

[MCJim]

Please just upload the tournament games asap. Youtube has 0 value to me because by the time serious matches are uploaded they've long been spoiled. And given that I currently don't actively follow the scene but simply occasionally look at a twitch stream, I am having a hard time following the tournament. There are almost no news posts here, the content on youtube is mostly irrelevant pr25 players duking it out to get bashed by a serious player and the twitch streams are packed with similair boring second chance games. The notification "ESOCTV has gone live" is worthless to me because I dont know what I will find when I tune in. Chances are its just another irrelevant game or showmatch, or that Ill be staring at the countdown for over an hour. Youtube uploads are mostly irrelevant and there seems to be little way to otherwise keep up with the tournament or follow the storyline of it because there is also a lack of newsposts. The only real thing there is to follow the tournament is some google calendar thing which is unfortunate because a) i dont use it and b) if I would use it I would never want to have it cluttered with aoe3 related stuff.

Honestly, in every regard esoc is failing to engage the slightly less dedicated person. There are almost no real tools to keep up, unless you want to dig through poorly named twitch vods while trying to not get spoiled but also trying to skip all the irrelevant matches.

or... you know... watch twitch videos...it's not that hard at all to find the right video.

like... can you blame a volunteer organization with very limited resources for focusing only or at least mainly on the dedicated core of the community theyre trying to serve, instead of putting in tons of effort to reach those few, or perhaps even many, individuals who are too lazy or care too little to spend a few clicks to find out pretty much all the things your asking for.

imo your demand is completely unreasonable. kinda the fact youre making demands, at least in that tone, is already unreasonable. it's not like your paying for a service which you arent getting...

There are no demands, only observations on how ESOC fails to engage the slightly less dedicated user in almost every regard. And the solution isnt unreasonable at all: instead of purposely delaying uploading games to youtube they should just upload to youtube within a week of the round finishing so that they actually keep up with the tournament. Thats not unreasonable at all..

It's important to upload YouTube videos on a stable base, so fans keep fed by nonstop content. Videos will get more views and the channel is able to grow faster.

When you bring more details into it, it's all about which group is the biggest. Followers of the tournament on Twitch or followers of the tournament on YouTube. Twitch followers (like Jerom) want to immediately see the games on YouTube, so they are always up to date when a stream goes live again. YouTube followers follow the tournament on YouTube, and mostly don't watch the streams. This group is okay to have daily videos, because they don't watch Twitch anyways so there's no reason to keep up to date of the current state of the tournament. (I've also never seen a comment in the comment section on YouTube of someone who's complaining about the YouTube videos being released too slowly.)

Which group is the biggest and we should listen to? That's the YouTube follower group. In less than 24 hours, a video gets about 1k views. This exists out of many unique people, more than the average Twitch stream gets. This means that we'd lose the biggest group of viewers when we annoy them with 10 videos in one day. This group wants to follow it slowly, one video a day.

Keeping up with Twitch and thus more videos per day also means more downtime on the channel, because we have to wait for the exports or there are no streams to be exported anymore. It gives more pressure to me to have everything ready in a certain time. I can't promise I can keep up at any moment of my life. This would require more manpower.

[momuuu]

I think they intentionally delay uploads to have a constant stream of "new" content.

No they're just lazy

A much more active management of the twitch to YouTube porting will require quite a bit more manpower.

The only thing that needs to be done is actually not purposely delaying uploads..

That's your opinion, not a fact. The youtube channel exists for all audiences, and unfortunately for you, the hardcore audience is not the biggest share, though the forums might make you believe otherwise since that's where the hardcore fanbase is most prominent.

I watched 3 series this entire tournament. Im exactly the opposite of the hardcore audience.

[MCJim]

Its ok having to wait for games to come on youtube imo. if you want to follow the latest game from one hour ago, there is twitch past broadcasts. its nice having new games beeing posted daily on YT.

BUT, you could prioritize the main event over second chance, and only post second chance games when there arent any games from the main event "in queue".

This is what I'm doing now, right? The Second Chance videos are not released yet. I always wait with that until they main tournament is over. Otherwise the channel becomes very messy.

[MCJim]

just stream on youtube, then you don't need to upload the games because they're already there.

I prefer youtube streams anyway because it allows you to pause or hop back

Yes then they are on YouTube, but they still have to be cut out. There's no option on YouTube for that (anymore). This is sadly not an option. Just highlighting them on Twitch and exporting them to YouTube is the easiest, right now.

[ChewSick]

just stream on youtube, then you don't need to upload the games because they're already there.

I prefer youtube streams anyway because it allows you to pause or hop back

Yes then they are on YouTube, but they still have to be cut out. There's no option on YouTube for that (anymore). This is sadly not an option. Just highlighting them on Twitch and exporting them to YouTube is the easiest, right now.

yeah i mean do it as you wish, but for me i dont care if it's cut or not. i just want to watch the games.

[momuuu]

I have a serious question for the media team:

Given the insane competition for entertainment there currently is in the world*, how would a non-diehard fan keep up with this tournament and end up being engaged into the community due to the tournament? What are the realistic means for this type of person to actually follow a tournament? What makes it so that the games that currently show up on youtube aren't glorified showmatches with little extra weight to it? How can it be that I don't even know at what stage of the tournament we are at? Are we looking at the finals, the semi finals? I wouldn't even know, I don't even know who's going to face who next up. How can the current approach even be justified to people that aren't diehards?

*For example, I follow around 18 active youtube channels, which in this weak have uploaded 411 minutes of content in the past 24 hours, while I also closely follow football. There are also countless of forum/reddit posts to spend attention on, aswell as over 30 games installed on my computer that I would like to play. This is what I assume a reasonable average competition that ESOC faces when it comes to anyone with a variety of interests.

[ChewSick]

How can it be that I don't even know at what stage of the tournament we are at? Are we looking at the finals, the semi finals? I wouldn't even know, I don't even know who's going to face who next up.

I agree, I actually had to ask tabben to send me brackets because I couldn't find them on the forums myself.

[Cometk]

While there are a lot of important points brought up here about how we can improve Media and tournament promotion, I get the overwhelming feeling that the biggest thing that has changed on ESOC is Jerom’s interest in AoE3.

[momuuu]

While there are a lot of important points brought up here about how we can improve Media and tournament promotion, I get the overwhelming feeling that the biggest thing that has changed on ESOC is Jerom’s interest in AoE3.

And how do you do that? By doing more than zero to engage a person like that. How does one regain interest? Seeing good games being played out is at least a great start. But no, ESOC doesn't even attempt to engage such a person in the slightest. It's only about the youtube algorithm.

[deleted_user]

While there are a lot of important points brought up here about how we can improve Media and tournament promotion, I get the overwhelming feeling that the biggest thing that has changed on ESOC is Jerom’s interest in AoE3.

And how do you do that? By doing more than zero to engage a person like that. How does one regain interest? Seeing good games being played out is at least a great start. But no, ESOC doesn't even attempt to engage such a person in the slightest. It's only about the youtube algorithm.

Fuckin cheer up, chap

[Mr_Bramboy]

I have a serious question for the media team:

Given the insane competition for entertainment there currently is in the world*, how would a non-diehard fan keep up with this tournament and end up being engaged into the community due to the tournament? What are the realistic means for this type of person to actually follow a tournament? What makes it so that the games that currently show up on youtube aren't glorified showmatches with little extra weight to it? How can it be that I don't even know at what stage of the tournament we are at? Are we looking at the finals, the semi finals? I wouldn't even know, I don't even know who's going to face who next up. How can the current approach even be justified to people that aren't diehards?

*For example, I follow around 18 active youtube channels, which in this weak have uploaded 411 minutes of content in the past 24 hours, while I also closely follow football. There are also countless of forum/reddit posts to spend attention on, aswell as over 30 games installed on my computer that I would like to play. This is what I assume a reasonable average competition that ESOC faces when it comes to anyone with a variety of interests.

I'm not speaking in the name of the media team, but I don't think the goal of the youtube channel is to compete for the #1 spot of the interests of people. I see the channel more as a project of volunteers to satisfy a nice community, not as a weapon of mass destruction meant to reach and influence as many people as possible.

[momuuu]

A good example is starcraft 2. I used to play sc2, lost motivation for it. However, I continued watching GSL because those guys actually hit all the aspects relevant to engage someone with their content (contrarily to ESOC) and kept me watching their stuff for multiple years without me even touching the game. I think I didn't play a game from somewhere around 2014 till basically the start of 2018, and yet I watched all their content. That's because they manage it well, don't flood their channel with B-tier players, because the notification 'GSL has gone live' garantuees you will be watching good fucking content, because you know every upload on youtube or whatever other platform is used will be a great upload. The result of this is that after 4 years I got back into the game, because watching all that great content kept me involved and eventually got me wanting to play again.

ESOC's equivalent? Flooding the youtube with pr20 vs pr20 while ignoring actually properly covering their only premiere event this entire year. But no, you're a negative guy if you bring up serious arguments and point out extremely severe flaws (complete mismanagement imo).

[momuuu]

I have a serious question for the media team:

Given the insane competition for entertainment there currently is in the world*, how would a non-diehard fan keep up with this tournament and end up being engaged into the community due to the tournament? What are the realistic means for this type of person to actually follow a tournament? What makes it so that the games that currently show up on youtube aren't glorified showmatches with little extra weight to it? How can it be that I don't even know at what stage of the tournament we are at? Are we looking at the finals, the semi finals? I wouldn't even know, I don't even know who's going to face who next up. How can the current approach even be justified to people that aren't diehards?

*For example, I follow around 18 active youtube channels, which in this weak have uploaded 411 minutes of content in the past 24 hours, while I also closely follow football. There are also countless of forum/reddit posts to spend attention on, aswell as over 30 games installed on my computer that I would like to play. This is what I assume a reasonable average competition that ESOC faces when it comes to anyone with a variety of interests.

I'm not speaking in the name of the media team, but I don't think the goal of the youtube channel is to compete for the #1 spot of the interests of people. I see the channel more as a project of volunteers to satisfy a nice community, not as a weapon of mass destruction meant to reach and influence as many people as possible.

So you don't want to involve people that still have a passion for aoe3 but don't have aoe3 high enough on their priority list to put in serious fucking effort to even know what is happening in the ONLY FUCKING EVENT THIS ENTIRE YEAR. That's just top tier mismanagement.

[deleted_user0]

I have a serious question for the media team:

Given the insane competition for entertainment there currently is in the world*, how would a non-diehard fan keep up with this tournament and end up being engaged into the community due to the tournament? What are the realistic means for this type of person to actually follow a tournament? What makes it so that the games that currently show up on youtube aren't glorified showmatches with little extra weight to it? How can it be that I don't even know at what stage of the tournament we are at? Are we looking at the finals, the semi finals? I wouldn't even know, I don't even know who's going to face who next up. How can the current approach even be justified to people that aren't diehards?

*For example, I follow around 18 active youtube channels, which in this weak have uploaded 411 minutes of content in the past 24 hours, while I also closely follow football. There are also countless of forum/reddit posts to spend attention on, aswell as over 30 games installed on my computer that I would like to play. This is what I assume a reasonable average competition that ESOC faces when it comes to anyone with a variety of interests.

i have a serious question for you. Why would you even try? It's not like someone whos even too lazy to look for a couple of videos, or too uninterested to follow the main event, is going to donate or be a valuable member to the community. esoc isnt a company in a competition for your consumership, its just a group of people enjoying a hobby. honestly youre sounding like a boardmember of a multinational who failed to meet their quarterly expected growth...

[Gendarme]

But Dolan told me that ESOC is a corporation. Now I am very chunfused.

[momuuu]

I have a serious question for the media team:

Given the insane competition for entertainment there currently is in the world*, how would a non-diehard fan keep up with this tournament and end up being engaged into the community due to the tournament? What are the realistic means for this type of person to actually follow a tournament? What makes it so that the games that currently show up on youtube aren't glorified showmatches with little extra weight to it? How can it be that I don't even know at what stage of the tournament we are at? Are we looking at the finals, the semi finals? I wouldn't even know, I don't even know who's going to face who next up. How can the current approach even be justified to people that aren't diehards?

*For example, I follow around 18 active youtube channels, which in this weak have uploaded 411 minutes of content in the past 24 hours, while I also closely follow football. There are also countless of forum/reddit posts to spend attention on, aswell as over 30 games installed on my computer that I would like to play. This is what I assume a reasonable average competition that ESOC faces when it comes to anyone with a variety of interests.

i have a serious question for you. Why would you even try? It's not like someone whos even too lazy to look for a couple of videos, or too uninterested to follow the main event, is going to donate or be a valuable member to the community. esoc isnt a company in a competition for your consumership, its just a group of people enjoying a hobby. honestly youre sounding like a boardmember of a multinational who failed to meet their quarterly expected growth...

I get inspired by watching aoe3 games, it makes me want to play. I'm convinced there are many people like this, given that viewership in almost all games is huge and that many people look up youtube videos to learn the game more. I always assumed that if ESOC would have any sort of goal, it would be to try to include these fringe players that can be engaged more into the community, so that the active playerbase of reasonable skill grows. That seems like something a community like ESOC would highly prioritize, wouldn't it? What is a great way to achieve such a thing? Proper media management, actually spreading the word. In my opinion the best job that was done was around autumn 2016, when there were weekly newsposts, crossposts to reddit and other forums, frequent tweets, even a trailer to announce the tournament. Right now, in my opinion, the media team achieves almost nothing with regards to involving more people in the community. I feel like that's a bad thing.

[Mitoe]

@momuuu FYI, this is the 2nd event this year (Grand Tour during the summer), and the 2017 Autumn Tournament ended in January this year. Aside from February through April, there wasn't much downtime this year, actually.

I actually agree about the YouTube stuff. I agree that the tournament brackets and stuff could be easier to find as well. Those are things we will work on in the future.

This tournament our primary focus was on improving rules, scheduling, and time management; and I think we've done a fantastic job in these areas. I believe this is the first ESOC tournament without any major delays (seriously, someone give @Cometk and @QueenOfdestiny some cookies for this). If you look at older tournaments they all took 1-3 weeks longer than this one because one or two rounds always got heavy delays, and there were a lot of unnecessary extensions.

We even got some cool little quality buffs such as our new animated overlays

To conclude, there are a lot of changes that need to be made that are probably long overdue, but we've also fixed a lot of other overdue problems in this last event and things will only improve before the next one. If we had more manpower we could get a lot more done and put a lot more brainpower into improving some of the things you've highlighted here @momuuu, but for this tournament I can count on one hand the number of people who have had a meaningful impact on its organization and progression. Something we've already been thinking about for next year is expanding the size of our team so that we can meet these goals and adapt more easily throughout events.

Hopefully this provides a bit more perspective behind our goals and decision making this time around.

[MCJim]

Speaking about the YouTube discussion... The reasons against changing the YouTube policy are in this post: viewtopic.php?p=331104#p331091 It's simple: the majority of the people that filled in the survey, want one video a day. I'd say the discussion is closed.

I for one, can't just totally change the policy of the YouTube channel because there's a small group of people that want to see the games on YouTube immediately. We don't have the manpower, I don't have the time for it and the most important reason: this group of the up to date tournament followers (Twitch audience) is way smaller than the group that likes to follow the tournament on YouTube. Therefore I stand up for their interest: meaning ONE video per day!

[guyshir]

I think I didn't play a game from somewhere around 2014 till basically the start of 2018, and yet I watched all their content.

[momuuu]

I think I didn't play a game from somewhere around 2014 till basically the start of 2018, and yet I watched all their content.

Read?

[Mitoe]

He's talking about StarCraft @guyshir

[momuuu]

Speaking about the YouTube discussion... The reasons against changing the YouTube policy are in this post: viewtopic.php?p=331104#p331091 It's simple: the majority of the people that filled in the survey, want one video a day. I'd say the discussion is closed.

I for one, can't just totally change the policy of the YouTube channel because there's a small group of people that want to see the games on YouTube immediately. We don't have the manpower, I don't have the time for it and the most important reason: this group of the up to date tournament followers (Twitch audience) is way smaller than the group that likes to follow the tournament on YouTube. Therefore I stand up for their interest: meaning ONE video per day!

Of course people want to have one upload every day over fewer uploads you muppet. That's just irrelevant.

The relevant part is that over 50% of people wants important matches to be uploaded ASAP. If you were to actually look at what people want, instead of being totally biased........

EDIT: Looking more closely, out of the votes 5.8% voted on junk options. 36.2% voted that they want tournament games to be uploaded as soon as possible. 23.2% voted they want 'a new video every day but I want to see important matches as soon as possible', 22.3% of people voted they want what we currently have, and 11.6% of people wants to 'post 2 group and early tournament games per day and at least one later on'. So actually, if only counting the relevant votes, 59.4%/94.2% of the votes, or adjusted 63% of people want to have the serious matches between good players uploaded ASAP, 12.6% currently thinks the uploading is going way too slowly, and only 24% of people thinks that the current upload schedule is fine. In other words, the overwhelming majority of people thinks whats going on right now should be changed. And yet you can somehow interpret this as 'its perfect the way it is right now'.

[guyshir]

He's talking about StarCraft @guyshir

ah, i skimmed through the long messages!
my bad @momuuu