Walls/water discussion

[HUMMAN]

OK take this as a humble comment from me @deleted_user
1 dock --> caravel + 2 caravel shipment the water guy can do same but since he invested in docks and boats you must be able to make units/ship units. I played water a lot and i can say at least at low levels people dont have good bo's, and i dont have a hard time beating water too since i know how to play it.
And again imo you can go full water in early game against water and you should win water(maybe not game). Boomer may seem to have eco advantage but in full water vs. water boats will be in docks, and lets say instead of fishing boats if you have canoes you are better.

[deleted_user0]

i played vs water plenty, and played it plenty myself, i also abused adv dock ofc. and i can say its broken.

what ppl do at low lvl is quite irrelevant here, sorry @HUMMAN. what you say is reasonably true, until adv dock is shipped. playing 2 front push doesn't really work vs aoe water, because warships can defend both np. so the best is to commit 100% to either killing water, or killing land.

i dont think rapha played g1 correct btw. he lost cuz he didnt focus on one or the other, but tried to play water and land.

[HUMMAN]

You dont have to bully me i already said take it as a humble comment.
You may be right, there is something weird with water but i dont think it is simple as advanced dock. People wont start choosing water maps just like schooners change.

[martinspjuth]

I agree water and docks are too strong.

But from my view point (may or may not count for much as I’m only a lt) many games that Kynesie win is because his opponents suck at late game. Whether this is because they are truly bad at it or just refuses to adapt their playstyle because it is “a lame playstyle” I leave unsaid. I mean most treaty lts could do a better job of walling and cannon micro than what is often seen by high lvl sup players. You can stop Kynesie from slowly wall pushing forward by just placing a few aggressive walls yourself and controlling your cannons better. The way Kynesie plays it would be easy to wall in his whole base, that way you can see as soon as he tries to be aggressive and have time to respond. Your walls will also block Kynesie from expanding his base with new walls.

If we take Raphael’s 5th game as an example he could have easily kept the initiative by just placing a couple of defensive walls to stop Kynesie from walking right into his base and killing his factory. With a few other walls the raids would have been prevented. Considering how defensive Kynesie is, I even think it would have been possible to make a few walls closer to his base and deny him the mine close to his tp. With some aggressive walling he could have slowly pushed into Kynesie’s base with his mass of artillery instead of having to immediately respond as soon as Kynesie sends units out on the map. I mean Raphael left the map completely open for Kynesie to take whenever he wanted. Raphael could have invested 200 wood and have complete map control that would be secure even after a bad engagement. I can’t judge if it would have been enough to turn the game around, but it sure would have given him a better chance and it is so easy to do with very little cost.

[91]

You know you're good at the game (kynesie) when you make a whole community complain that the game is broken right after you win hahaha

Thanks for many entertaining games @lordraphael

[Dolan]

@lordraphael

If water is so broken, explain this:

https://youtu.be/gCHiZl2NxBk?t=2643

This is when water and walls were much stronger and lamer than now. So, what has changed?

[Kaiserklein]

Advanced Docks has been a staple in water decks for AT LEAST the last 2 years.

But then again, none of you here play water.

Lol I already knew about that card several years ago when I didn't even have TAD. Stop acting like everyone has no clue and water is totally fine.
Advanced docks is clearly lame and I can't understand anyone arguing against that. If you think it's normal that 1-2 cards basically make it totally impossible for your opponent to use his warships, I don't know what to say. It's funny cause a couple years ago everyone was like "water is not op, you just need to actually fight on water!!!", and nowadays you can't even fight on water in fact.

@lordraphael

If water is so broken, explain this:

https://youtu.be/gCHiZl2NxBk?t=2643

This is when water and walls were much stronger and lamer than now. So, what has changed?

Showing one specific game is totally gonna change the debate.

[Garja]

Advanced Docks has been a staple in water decks for AT LEAST the last 2 years.

But then again, none of you here play water.

2 years is a stretch. Maybe tit and kynesie did but everyone else, including other water lamers never did since the last year or less.

[Dolan]

Showing one specific game is totally gonna change the debate.

I can't post 10 games in which BSOP beat Kynesie's water/wall lame, because they only played once in a tourney. So if more footage exists, it might have been on Blackstar's twich stream archive, if it's not deleted. But probably most games between them were not recorded.

The argument is: if one player could beat this when walls and water were stronger, what changed since then?

[Kaiserklein]

Idk, maybe we should start by taking into account that at that time, blackstar was probably a solid 5 (if not 10) pr higher than kynesie? Then notice kynesie didn't ship advanced docks or coastal defences at all, which is the main problem.
So I don't see how that example is relevant in any way

[Garja]

zzzz bsop cocksucking once again..
I used to also do just fine vs kynesie water (after I lost several.times to him to learn) but at that time none was using advanced docks and in general water play wasmt as developed as now.
It is not impossible to beat but it gives the giy woth docks an incredible advantage.

[Dolan]

@Kaiserklein

Kynesie didn't ship those cards because Bsop didn't commit to water, so there was no point in shipping them. Maybe that's why the land strat won the game.

And he never gave Kynesie the breathing space to ship those cards, because he kept him on his toes the whole game. Kynesie was forced to ship and use CM, for example.

[Kaiserklein]

zzzz bsop cocksucking once again..
I used to also do just fine vs kynesie water (after I lost several.times to him to learn) but at that time none was using advanced docks and in general water play wasmt as developed as now.
It is not impossible to beat but it gives the giy woth docks an incredible advantage.

Dude I'm really not a bsop fanboy or something, but obviously there was a skill gap lol. You jealous or what?

Kynesie didn't ship those cards because Bsop didn't commit to water, so there was no point in shipping them. Maybe that's why the land strat won the game.

And he never gave Kynesie the breathing space to ship those cards, because he kept his on his toes the whole game. Kynesie was forced to ship and use CM, for example.

Well if he didn't commit to water, then I still don't see why this example is relevant, since we're mostly talking about water fights and docks here. If it's about beating water with full land, we already know that doesn't work if the water player doesn't make big mistakes. Didn't watch that game but I guess kynesie just fucked up, cause it's literally impossible to lose with water vs land on a map with islands and when training monitors.

[Hazza54321]

yeah i dont remember kynesie shipping both coastal and advanced dock before a few months ago

[Garja]

zzzz bsop cocksucking once again..
I used to also do just fine vs kynesie water (after I lost several.times to him to learn) but at that time none was using advanced docks and in general water play wasmt as developed as now.
It is not impossible to beat but it gives the giy woth docks an incredible advantage.

Dude I'm really not a bsop fanboy or something, but obviously there was a skill gap lol. You jealous or what?

Kynesie didn't ship those cards because Bsop didn't commit to water, so there was no point in shipping them. Maybe that's why the land strat won the game.

And he never gave Kynesie the breathing space to ship those cards, because he kept his on his toes the whole game. Kynesie was forced to ship and use CM, for example.

Well if he didn't commit to water, then I still don't see why this example is relevant, since we're mostly talking about water fights and docks here. If it's about beating water with full land, we already know that doesn't work if the water player doesn't make big mistakes. Didn't watch that game but I guess kynesie just fucked up, cause it's literally impossible to lose with water vs land on a map with islands and when training monitors.

No it just happens that bsop is the favorite name to make bad balance claims, based on streaming moreover.
I wasnt refering to you anyway

[rodr_o]

Maybe dock attack should be nerfed to 9-10 per boat and advanced dock give 50% like CM, keep the healing rate and build rate. It makes no sense to have docks with the anti-ship attack of a fort.
Also the 70w boat + schooners -40% training time allows to mass boats in like 2 mins and with adv dock you cant push water, even without coastal def.
Frontier Outpost should up the anti-ship to 150.

[Dolan]

yeah i dont remember kynesie shipping both coastal and advanced dock before a few months ago

Np, m8, it happens to the best of us. This was 2 years ago:



[spoiler=spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKxs0LQq41I[/spoiler]

[Rikikipu]

@Kynesie

[Mitoe]

yeah i dont remember kynesie shipping both coastal and advanced dock before a few months ago

He has always used it. It's been a thing for years; but you never saw it because we never used to see casted games where both players go water.

[Kynesie]

Costal def + adv dock is used since long time lol.but in 1st game vs rapha, was clearly an overreact^^
Ep reduce water size so docks become more and more usefull because atm they can shoot in half of the water zone.. But they are not op if they don t cover 3 whales like a manchuria docks...
Matchs i played vs rapha wasn t revelant at all. He played bad or had bad deck...

[Dolan]

Let me put this another way:

1. Kynesie never won a seasonal Esoc tournament
2. Kynesie has always played water in tourneys
3. Kynesie has been using different combinations of water cards over the years (including the one used in this series vs LR)

If all these 3 propositions are true (only the first 2 are necessary), it means there has always been someone who beat this style of play. And this has happened even when walls were much stronger and warships were more powerful too.

What has changed since then? Maybe the level of gameplay has gone down enough for Kynesie to finally get a chance to win a seasonal tourney? Or did he improve so much that the opportunity finally arrived?

[Goodspeed]

Both, would be the short answer

[Garja]

I think we are talking about 2 things at the same time and making confusion.
Kynesie didnt just abuse water and walls vs LR. He won because of other factors, such as knowing that inf ups are useful in port mirror with walls and knowing that yumi with wall land grab beat everything, especially Germans' accomodating semi FF.
He won deservedly despite the fact that without walls he is overall weaker than the majority of ro32 players.
Which brings to the second point of the discussion.
Water and walls can be abused to the point that they nullify other skills in the game. Those other skills are traditionally considered more important and should have a higher priority in deciding the outcome of games.

[Garja]

Both, would be the short answer

To be fair - and this is relevant to balance - when it comes about water, schooners+advanced dock abuse+warship nerfs just made it so water booming is now stronger relatively to water punishing.
This is very clear when people abuse the dock range (and defualt LOS btw) to control most of the sea as Kynesie said.

[zoom]

Water play is fun. Especially since it tilts the shit out of everyone. Learn all aspects of the game and how to play them. Kynesie clearly has a more well rounded game knowledge, and that's why he won. Also probably rapa was rusty.

Everyone complains that the game is semi ff stale, so try to learn water, it's new build orders and type of play. Its fresh, different and actually a lot of fun. It's like a new game. How dumb is it that essentially half the game has never been fully explored.

I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment, but it is important to ensure that it is balanced enough for your ideal to come closer to reality. EP has taken steps towards this already, and I'm sure will continue to do so.

I think it's partly a balance issue and partly a mentality issue. Players can struggle to counter certain play-styles even more than the play-styles are strong.