Walls/water discussion

[HUMMAN]

Then why other ro32 players abuse wall and win, no one wants 1000 dollar?

[SoldieR]

The master has spoken.

Garja, why do you consistently say that skill = micro or skirm goon or whatever..this is a STRATEGY game. He had better strategies and better late game knowledge. It's really that simple.

[SoldieR]

This game is not gdamn time to micro, with an open field to hit and run you perfect combo and ratio of units. Sometimes it's a game more about building your eco to make it that it doesn't matter how you micro those scenarios. And the challenge on that is to survive long enough and hold the pressure until you get to that point for your eco.

[Garja]

I think your picking on the wrong person. If you actually read my post you would understand that.
Kynesie macro was actually on point in all games at least after a certain point. The only thing tho is that walls trivialize it as they make it much easier to max out.

[Cometk]

1 player of the top 8 has this defensive play style and apparently it’s completely broken. why didn’t anybody else copy kynesie’s playstyle to make it further in the tournament than they should’ve? simple; they can’t. kynesie just does it better than everyone else

[Garja]

Of course he does. He plays that since forever.
As for the reason why others don't:
- it's not supposed to be good but it ends up being with some civs
- it's boring af

[SoldieR]

I think your picking on the wrong person. If you actually read my post you would understand that.
Kynesie macro was actually on point in all games at least after a certain point. The only thing tho is that walls trivialize it as they make it much easier to max out.

You said:
He won deservedly despite the fact that without walls he is overall weaker than the majority of ro32 players.
Which brings to the second point of the discussion.
Water and walls can be abused to the point that they nullify other skills in the game. Those other skills are traditionally considered more important and should have a higher priority in deciding the outcome of games.

He is most definitely not weaker than most ro32. With or without walls. And the fact that noone else uses walls is THEIR deficiency, not his.

[Hazza54321]

yeah especially since how poor the ro32 was this year

[gibson]

yea hes a top 8 player easily

[SoldieR]

Its like were bashing this guy because he knows the lesser used parts of this game better than everyone else. lool

[gh0st]

1 player of the top 8 has this defensive play style and apparently it’s completely broken. why didn’t anybody else copy kynesie’s playstyle to make it further in the tournament than they should’ve? simple; they can’t. kynesie just does it better than everyone else

Exactly lol, and its just hilareous how here people are finding one or the other excuses on why kynesie is winning inspite of being 'bad', which he obviously isnt. If anything, this thread probably proves how OP he really is lol.

[Lukas_L99]

i think its hilarious u kids talking shit about kynesie. u wouldnt say this shit to him at lan, hes jacked. not only that but he wears the freshest clothes, eats at the chillest restaurants and hangs out with the hottest dudes. yall are pathetic lol

[Kaiserklein]

Its like were bashing this guy because he knows the lesser used parts of this game better than everyone else. lool

Well Kynesie is just being smart abusing the broken stuff. No one can blame him for that, it's normal in tourneys

[Jaeger]

i played vs water plenty, and played it plenty myself, i also abused adv dock ofc. and i can say its broken.

what ppl do at low lvl is quite irrelevant here, sorry @HUMMAN. what you say is reasonably true, until adv dock is shipped. playing 2 front push doesn't really work vs aoe water, because warships can defend both np. so the best is to commit 100% to either killing water, or killing land.

i dont think rapha played g1 correct btw. he lost cuz he didnt focus on one or the other, but tried to play water and land.

Well Tit did succesful 2 front push in his game vs Kynesie. So it's possible with at least in some matchups

[lordraphael]

1 player of the top 8 has this defensive play style and apparently it’s completely broken. why didn’t anybody else copy kynesie’s playstyle to make it further in the tournament than they should’ve? simple; they can’t. kynesie just does it better than everyone else

nope i could train this style and be better at it than him after 50-100 games, maybe more but eventually i would be better simply casue of better mechanics. Same applies to anyone in top8. The reason no one is doing it is becasue we dont wanna play like that as it is insanely boring. Id never even have started aoe3 in the first place if this style was the meta. Its boring as fuck. i kinda wanna prove it to you now but that would require me playing the game and it would require me playing a style which i despise so much that infact id rather go to work than doing that lol.

however if somoene is willing to pay me 15 dollar per hour ( my wage at my work) im willing to prove it. 100 games averaging at about 30 to 60 min (casue of kynesie playstyle and thats even assuming id find games nonstop) means pay me between 1000 and 1500 dollars and ill prove to you that his style is not hard to do nor would he be the best in it if someone took the time to execute it properly.

[Lukas_L99]

Sounds like a good offer :>

[gibson]

someone pay me 20 dollars an hour and ill do whatever they want

[SoldieR]

1 player of the top 8 has this defensive play style and apparently it’s completely broken. why didn’t anybody else copy kynesie’s playstyle to make it further in the tournament than they should’ve? simple; they can’t. kynesie just does it better than everyone else

nope i could train this style and be better at it than him after 50-100 games, maybe more but eventually i would be better simply casue of better mechanics. Same applies to anyone in top8. The reason no one is doing it is becasue we dont wanna play like that as it is insanely boring. Id never even have started aoe3 in the first place if this style was the meta. Its boring as fuck. i kinda wanna prove it to you now but that would require me playing the game and it would require me playing a style which i despise so much that infact id rather go to work than doing that lol.

however if somoene is willing to pay me 15 dollar per hour ( my wage at my work) im willing to prove it. 100 games averaging at about 30 to 60 min (casue of kynesie playstyle and thats even assuming id find games nonstop) means pay me between 1000 and 1500 dollars and ill prove to you that his style is not hard to do nor would he be the best in it if someone took the time to execute it properly.

50 games X 60 mins per game / 100 X 30 mins per game @ $15/hour = $750 which is interestingly just under 1st place cash this tourney xD

too bad you didnt think of this sooner.. xD

[ChewSick]

however if somoene is willing to pay me 15 dollar per hour ( my wage at my work) im willing to prove it. 100 games averaging at about 30 to 60 min (casue of kynesie playstyle and thats even assuming id find games nonstop) means pay me between 1000 and 1500 dollars and ill prove to you that his style is not hard to do nor would he be the best in it if someone took the time to execute it properly.

sounds like a profitable investment

[Garja]

I think your picking on the wrong person. If you actually read my post you would understand that.
Kynesie macro was actually on point in all games at least after a certain point. The only thing tho is that walls trivialize it as they make it much easier to max out.

You said:
He won deservedly despite the fact that without walls he is overall weaker than the majority of ro32 players.
Which brings to the second point of the discussion.
Water and walls can be abused to the point that they nullify other skills in the game. Those other skills are traditionally considered more important and should have a higher priority in deciding the outcome of games.

He is most definitely not weaker than most ro32. With or without walls. And the fact that noone else uses walls is THEIR deficiency, not his.

I'd say overall he's weaker than most. Relatively limited civ pool and usually doesn't keep up with other top players when it's about a normal game without walls. I guess there are few MUs where he's good (e.g. Jap mirror). He does macro well and brings the game to its favor but, again, it is often just cause walling allows the game to go that way.

In a tourney setting ye, if walling is the best way to play to win others should also wall. In fact if I were to play Kynesie I would prepare specifically for his playstyle which many players including Raphael didn't fully (reason why he was missing inf ups).
Then again it just happened that walls and water are incredibly strong in this meta so he kinda found himself with strong weapons in his hand.

And If I were payed for every time I spent ton of time just to prove stuff in this game I would be fuckin rich already lol

[gibson]

What does weaker than most mean? He's played in 5 major esoc tourneys and been ro8 or better 4 times and ro16 once. He's at worst half a tier below top tier players and more likely than not top tier, albeit bottom top tier.

[Garja]

Well I dont rank players by tourney achievements

[Hazza54321]

kynesie is much better in tournies rather than out of tournies due to the tilt factor

[gibson]

thats odd, considering that tourney results are the most relevant results

[supahons]

i think i've seen some water-kynesie-games in 2015 or 2016 with these cards (*edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpoF6wKuZs0&t=92m50s 02.03.2016), when i started playing aoe3 again. I wonder why nobody since then has ever changed the water mechanics. You can't blame a player for abusing a broken(?) in game mechanics, if there's no explicit rule for this, or no "unwritten fair-play-agreement" (no alt-d, machine gun explorer, monitor abuse, macros ...). There is also no rule against Water-Walls, Yumi-Walls, Portuguese cm. It probably just forces you to win an eco+water/ artillery-war in late game or to adapt to this defensive playstyle.

If a player can change a supremacy game into a treaty game, then the treaty player usually wins. It's very demoralizing/frustrating for an aggressive player (with an average game time 8-15 min), to play against somebody that plays hide and seek with walls on a high level/ doesn't resign on a low level. You probably have to change your mind and deck to a late game supremacy-treaty game (~nr25?) to win and to counter this, if you know your opponent likes to turtle. Perhaps nerf the walls a bit in supremacy (7500->5000), they are imo too strong for this gamemode/ if you have a rush deck. Or i'm just as bored of siegeing walls/building walls like the other players that don't like this very defensive playstyle.

Usually in every game the Character/Civ has a defensive, balanced, offensive strength, but if something/ eg. a card is utterly broken then a nerf/buff can fix it. Then the question is: Is it broken or is it enough to change the strategy for a few turtle civs? (i'm a "land player", Supremacy+Treaty and try to avoid water)