Walls/water discussion

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what made the advanced dock card viable is as @Kynesie also said that the size of the water is really small. and the faster fishingboat training thing kinda changed the meta. while you would just have 2-3 fishing boats at 5 min. now you have 8-9 fishboats to put into dock and kill caravels.

actually this is the most important part to take into consideration for the next balance change.

A) if there's more water, and the fish patches are further away from the docks, then adv dock is less problematic.
B) if you can pass docks without being in range of them (for example rapha had to hug the edge of the map, and then he was still almost in range) adv dock is also less problematic.
C) the 40% faster training on schooners needs to be tweaked.

Imo it should be something like this:

Schooners > -30 wood. (I don't think 40w fishing boats was any problem). That's it.
TAD schooners > +1 dock and +25%-40% faster training of fishing boats (numbers need to be looked at)

Possibly: docks cost 250w instead of 200.

What's wrong with Schooners? Also, do you realize EP Schooners is also a nerf to Advanced Dock?

eh? how is it a nerf to advanced dock?

and what's wrong with it is that it's much better now than it was. and we can all agree that schooners on re, if not too strong, was just fine. there's no need to add 40% faster training, which in itself is already an excessive number for a card, on top of a cost reduction. this change has many unintended side effects

A) it's not just a cost reduction now, faster train speed means u need less docks. where before ppl like kynesie would go 5-6 docks on water maps, u can now just boom with 3.

B) faster training means u have more out earlier, snowballing the boom effect, even if the overall amount of boats made isnt changed.

C) because u have more boats early, advanced dock is stronger early, meaning its now viable to send earlier. but even without the card, more ships in dock = easier hold vs a 2 caravel shipment.

-40% FB train-points effectively decreases the number of Docks constructed.

[zoom]

Showing one specific game is totally gonna change the debate.

I can't post 10 games in which BSOP beat Kynesie's water/wall lame, because they only played once in a tourney. So if more footage exists, it might have been on Blackstar's twich stream archive, if it's not deleted. But probably most games between them were not recorded.

The argument is: if one player could beat this when walls and water were stronger, what changed since then?

Player performance plummeted from mediocre to bad. It's the cold, hard truth. Games are still entertaining to watch, though!

[pecelot]

really just what's so tough in making outposts fire cannons at fishing ships

*your

[t3rror1sta]

About water vs land: thats a map problem imo. if you make maps that have little to no res near the shore, rushing/timming becomes viable vs full water (currently you rush, kill the tc, the guys just migrates to gold mines and trees in the shore, ggnore)

Walls: We could try increasing building time of walls (maybe 3x current time). they still serve the same purpuse, but you cant spam 5 layers in one minute. Also helping agressive play vs fullwall no army style. (water boom should be viable, but full rush all in should still counter full boom.)

snow proves to us its possible.

Water build isnt impossible to counter... maybe we have to think out of the box.
And stop trying to nerf every strategy the most players didnt use/like.

[Hazza54321]

Did snoww prove to us? xD, however i dont think water is op there are still certain aspects which are broken, mostly revolved around docks

[lordraphael]

he lsot every water map, ( when water was being played) so he kinda didnt proof anything. Anyways i think its worth taking a look at how aoc water works.
1) fishing boats needs dropoffpoints ( docks) to gather ressources. What this means is actually very important, it means water falls off the longer the game goes on, at the begginning its very strong because fish is near docks but later on salining time between fish and docks gets bigger and bigger diminishing the return you actually get from boats, also not being allowed to garrison docks makes raids on sea very possible.
2) boats cannot be garrisoned and docks dont shoot, however ships can be garrisoned into docks upon creation and release them at once. A big advantage when you try to get on sea.
3) and i think this is the most important. There are different shiptypes all countering each other. This is really missing in aoe 3. Its just the bigger the better. In aoc you have fire galleys, war galleys cannon galleys and demo ships. And all counter each other. Fires counter war , demos counter fire and war counter demo ( tho demo can counter everything with enough eco and missing micro) and cannon galley gets countered by everything( they monitors of aoc )
4) boats and ships cost population, if you invest to much in water you wont have any land army left to fight there
5) ships are highly microable. Unlike aoe 3 where the biggest micro you ever gonna sea is pulling back low health ships, in aoc its really possible to outmicro opponents ( at least before ballistics is in) and have similar interactions like on land.

for aoe3 it would be cool to have a more aoc like water. Clear counter plays on sea just like on land. For example having ships that excel at water fights ( maybe even take less damage from docks tcs etc, if you dont wanna get rid of docks shooting cannon balls ) but perform poorly vs land and vice versa. Also give demo ships to all civs. only china has them and i think they are a great way to deal with water without having all the ws ups. I think demos would need to be slightly cost inefficent but get an up in IV to improve them( sth chinas lacking afaik)

For the reccord i also enjoy wathcing aoc land gameplay a lot more than water play, but its certainly a lot more enjoyable to both watch and play aoc water compared to aoe3s

[ChewSick]

4) boats and ships cost population, if you invest to much in water you wont have any land army left to fight there

Giving ships a reasonable amount of pop sounds fair to me. maybe lower wood cost for war ships a bit to compensate.

[deleted_user0]

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what made the advanced dock card viable is as @Kynesie also said that the size of the water is really small. and the faster fishingboat training thing kinda changed the meta. while you would just have 2-3 fishing boats at 5 min. now you have 8-9 fishboats to put into dock and kill caravels.

actually this is the most important part to take into consideration for the next balance change.

A) if there's more water, and the fish patches are further away from the docks, then adv dock is less problematic.
B) if you can pass docks without being in range of them (for example rapha had to hug the edge of the map, and then he was still almost in range) adv dock is also less problematic.
C) the 40% faster training on schooners needs to be tweaked.

Imo it should be something like this:

Schooners > -30 wood. (I don't think 40w fishing boats was any problem). That's it.
TAD schooners > +1 dock and +25%-40% faster training of fishing boats (numbers need to be looked at)

Possibly: docks cost 250w instead of 200.

What's wrong with Schooners? Also, do you realize EP Schooners is also a nerf to Advanced Dock?

eh? how is it a nerf to advanced dock?

and what's wrong with it is that it's much better now than it was. and we can all agree that schooners on re, if not too strong, was just fine. there's no need to add 40% faster training, which in itself is already an excessive number for a card, on top of a cost reduction. this change has many unintended side effects

A) it's not just a cost reduction now, faster train speed means u need less docks. where before ppl like kynesie would go 5-6 docks on water maps, u can now just boom with 3.

B) faster training means u have more out earlier, snowballing the boom effect, even if the overall amount of boats made isnt changed.

C) because u have more boats early, advanced dock is stronger early, meaning its now viable to send earlier. but even without the card, more ships in dock = easier hold vs a 2 caravel shipment.

-40% FB train-points effectively decreases the number of Docks constructed.

thats not a nerf... (or if you insist that it is, its a very small and insignificant one) because you will never make more than 30 boats anyway, and the attack maxes out at 10 boats docked. so you never need more than 2-3 docks anyway to benefit from adv dock. it looks to me like youre reaching with this one.

[VooDoo_BoSs]

To be honest, these are all some fairly radical changes when there is no evidence that water is OP.

We have seen one player who tends to be quite good at water play, beat another player who insists the only reason he lost the series is because of this seeming imbalance (even though the games in questions were mirrors and LR simply picked the wrong strategy.

We have NOT seen the typical signs of imbalance: that water becomes a dominant strategy that most players choose and win easily (think Bow Riders as Sioux, agents in early TWC days etc.). One player performing strongly at a particular strategy is not a sign of imbalance.

This whole thread just seems ridiculous. I would love to see another player emulate Kynesie's game style and get to the finals of a tournament.

[deleted_user0]

he lsot every water map, ( when water was being played) so he kinda didnt proof anything. Anyways i think its worth taking a look at how aoc water works.
1) fishing boats needs dropoffpoints ( docks) to gather ressources. What this means is actually very important, it means water falls off the longer the game goes on, at the begginning its very strong because fish is near docks but later on salining time between fish and docks gets bigger and bigger diminishing the return you actually get from boats, also not being allowed to garrison docks makes raids on sea very possible.
2) boats cannot be garrisoned and docks dont shoot, however ships can be garrisoned into docks upon creation and release them at once. A big advantage when you try to get on sea.
3) and i think this is the most important. There are different shiptypes all countering each other. This is really missing in aoe 3. Its just the bigger the better. In aoc you have fire galleys, war galleys cannon galleys and demo ships. And all counter each other. Fires counter war , demos counter fire and war counter demo ( tho demo can counter everything with enough eco and missing micro) and cannon galley gets countered by everything( they monitors of aoc )
4) boats and ships cost population, if you invest to much in water you wont have any land army left to fight there
5) ships are highly microable. Unlike aoe 3 where the biggest micro you ever gonna sea is pulling back low health ships, in aoc its really possible to outmicro opponents ( at least before ballistics is in) and have similar interactions like on land.

for aoe3 it would be cool to have a more aoc like water. Clear counter plays on sea just like on land. For example having ships that excel at water fights ( maybe even take less damage from docks tcs etc, if you dont wanna get rid of docks shooting cannon balls ) but perform poorly vs land and vice versa. Also give demo ships to all civs. only china has them and i think they are a great way to deal with water without having all the ws ups. I think demos would need to be slightly cost inefficent but get an up in IV to improve them( sth chinas lacking afaik)

For the reccord i also enjoy wathcing aoc land gameplay a lot more than water play, but its certainly a lot more enjoyable to both watch and play aoc water compared to aoe3s

yea, ships not countering each other, being hard to micro because of animation and the rotate ship abuse makes water play very boring and with little interaction. it's just about upgrades, which means that if you just lack certain cards or upgrades because of your civ, you have no chance to play late game water, which means you either have to ignore it, or go for some early water all in, which ofc, if it fails = insta gg.

[Hazza54321]

Ep schooners buffed advanced docks what are you talking about, if someone wants to apply early warship pressure its much easier to max out 2 docks rather than 3 with RE schooners, besides you hardly train anymore than 20/25 boats anyway so extra docks are irrelevant unless youre expanding the coast line and want the dock shooting in a more prime location

[mmTakezo]

odd, consdiering that tourney games are the only games where you can guarantee 1) that people are trying and 2) a balanced match

Hi there I'm looking for your YOU TUBE channel but I can not find it you can tell me the name please?

[HUMMAN]

I agree all ships should not be good at land.

[Hazza54321]

Monitor special att shouldnt have negative multiplier vs docks

[Garja]

the neg bonus is so that the other player can take water back/ not lose dock when trying to contest water

[Hazza54321]

If they scout you building a dock theyre not gonna monitor it, they will just bring their frigates over

[Garja]

exactly, that s the point of the neg bonus

[Hazza54321]

Hi wall, how are you?

[HUMMAN]

As rapha said, one thing about water there is no only water killer ivesment. Another things, with ups ships get %100 more stronger, u cant do same to culvs. Most importantly ships are few unlike another unit, healing is really strong. Imagine u have 5k hp 400 attack gendarme, you can always kill few units and heal back and attack again. In ships its even easier since there are safe spots(going far to water from land threat , docks and tcs from threats of water)

[yemshi]

Hi wall, how are you?

Weaker and weaker with each day. I hope people won't forget me when the Lords and Misstresses of the Empires Assembly are finished sucking out the few blood that is left in my venes.

[Hazza54321]

I thought you were the strong and silent type

[spanky4ever]

while I do think Kynesie played the games really smart, I would not like this to become the new "meta" of playing the tournament. Its kind of boring, and very time consuming.
I do think Kynesie has improved a lot since the last tournaments - and he is deserving to be in the final.

If there are to be changes to the docs, and how much the boats will cost, I hope that will also be a thing TWC civs can benefit from??
Think the suggestion by Goodspeed, that TWC could choose a card that make a doc + improve the traintime for fishing boats, sounds good?

TWC civilizations did benefit from the Fishing Boat cost buff, I believe.

they did, and it was good. But it would be even better if twc civs could get a fishingdoc in age 1, and improved traintime, and that it could be something all the civs could have as an option.

Would prolly need to take a cheap-fishing-boat-card away from Azzy, cos they already have the option at making 15 wood fishing boats.
Anyways, it sounded good when GS suggested this, and it would be on my wish list, for sure

[Interjection]

If you think about it, the dock is a 200w town center without a build limit!

[oxaloacetate]

except the resources are limited and you can't mill/plant, so it kinda has a build limit if you wanna stay cost efficient.

[zoom]

Show hidden quotes

what made the advanced dock card viable is as @Kynesie also said that the size of the water is really small. and the faster fishingboat training thing kinda changed the meta. while you would just have 2-3 fishing boats at 5 min. now you have 8-9 fishboats to put into dock and kill caravels.

actually this is the most important part to take into consideration for the next balance change.

A) if there's more water, and the fish patches are further away from the docks, then adv dock is less problematic.
B) if you can pass docks without being in range of them (for example rapha had to hug the edge of the map, and then he was still almost in range) adv dock is also less problematic.
C) the 40% faster training on schooners needs to be tweaked.

Imo it should be something like this:

Schooners > -30 wood. (I don't think 40w fishing boats was any problem). That's it.
TAD schooners > +1 dock and +25%-40% faster training of fishing boats (numbers need to be looked at)

Possibly: docks cost 250w instead of 200.

What's wrong with Schooners? Also, do you realize EP Schooners is also a nerf to Advanced Dock?

eh? how is it a nerf to advanced dock?

and what's wrong with it is that it's much better now than it was. and we can all agree that schooners on re, if not too strong, was just fine. there's no need to add 40% faster training, which in itself is already an excessive number for a card, on top of a cost reduction. this change has many unintended side effects

A) it's not just a cost reduction now, faster train speed means u need less docks. where before ppl like kynesie would go 5-6 docks on water maps, u can now just boom with 3.

B) faster training means u have more out earlier, snowballing the boom effect, even if the overall amount of boats made isnt changed.

C) because u have more boats early, advanced dock is stronger early, meaning its now viable to send earlier. but even without the card, more ships in dock = easier hold vs a 2 caravel shipment.

-40% FB train-points effectively decreases the number of Docks constructed.

thats not a nerf... (or if you insist that it is, its a very small and insignificant one) because you will never make more than 30 boats anyway, and the attack maxes out at 10 boats docked. so you never need more than 2-3 docks anyway to benefit from adv dock. it looks to me like youre reaching with this one.

I'm not reaching, I'm just slow. Thanks. I don't think it's a big deal, either way.

A & B are entirely intended effects. Schooners is worse than it is on RE, though, for sure. Finally, it was originally suggested to be 40%, but was changed because of concerns from a few (literally) individuals. After release, it was widely considered underpowered, and was changed back to 40%, accordingly. I don't consider this difference a big deal, either.