Fattening and Decay Rate

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Great Britain Interjection
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

I also like the idea of reducing their cost.

What if sheep cost 50f?
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Italy Garja
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Garja »

Ye I wouldn't mess with gathering rates, they can be far more impactful and harder to tweak.
The cost is indeed impactful too but a bit more intuitive to tweak. Probably more relevant in a supremacy game (and irrelevant in a treaty game, tho we have a dedicated patch for that).
50% discount seems big to me tho.
From a design POV I honestly wouldn't encourage more mechanics to camp in base, that's the last thing the game needs. Also it should still remain something secondary and not a direct alternative to hunting.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

I agree 100% it shouldn't be an alternative to hunting!

Training a couple of sheep should be something you occasionally do if you think you can get away with it for a little bit of extra eco
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Great Britain Interjection
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

edeholland wrote:For reference, here are the actual values, so you don't have to time it. :love:

Keep in mind the animal training times as well. A sheep takes 10 seconds to spawn, cow takes 15 seconds, and a llama takes a full minute to spawn.
































































Sheep Llama Cow
Cards/upgrades Food/sec Time to fatten (sec) Food/sec Time to fatten (sec) Food/sec Time to fatten (sec)
No Livestock Pen / Farm 0.200 1,250 0.300 1,167 0.250 1,800
Livestock Pen/Farm 0.700 357 1.050 333 1.250 360
Livestock Pen / Farm & Selective Breeding 0.825 303 1.238 283 1.500 300
Livestock Pen / Farm & Stockyards 0.850 294 1.275 275 1.550 290
Livestock Pen / Farm & Sel. Breed & Stockyards 0.975 256 1.463 239 1.800 250
Livestock Pen / Farm & Sel. Breed & Stockyards & Navajo 1.125 222 1.688 207 2.100 214
Livestock Pen / Farm & Sel. Breed & Stockyards & Navajo & TEAM Wool 1.225 204 1.838 190 2.300 196


Hold on a moment! The selective breeding upgrade makes livestock fatten 25% more quickly but it looks like in the table it only improves the fattening rate by ~15%. What's going on here?

NOTE: I looked in the sheep column and did 303/357
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

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Post by WickedCossack »

Pen adds 0.5 fd/s. According to the table the "25%" upgrade is applied to the pen boost i.e 25% of 0.5 is 0.125.

If pen were a card it would say boosts gather rate by 250%.

The selective breeding then boosts this boost by 25% making the total boost 250% + 250*0.25 = 312.5%

Hence selective breeding could arguably say makes livestock fatten 62.5% more quickly.

A lot of the %'s in this game are misleading like the age 4 japan 500% shrine boost, they need some context to understand their value.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:Ye I wouldn't mess with gathering rates, they can be far more impactful and harder to tweak.
The cost is indeed impactful too but a bit more intuitive to tweak. Probably more relevant in a supremacy game (and irrelevant in a treaty game, tho we have a dedicated patch for that).
50% discount seems big to me tho.
From a design POV I honestly wouldn't encourage more mechanics to camp in base, that's the last thing the game needs. Also it should still remain something secondary and not a direct alternative to hunting.

Yeah this is true actually. In Wars of Liberty there are civs that literally switch to livestock as soon as possible in age 1 because it's way too cost effective and it definitely made the game a lot more passive.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by rodr_o »

Llamas are way too slow to train(1min), 20 secs or 25 secs would be viable.
Sheeps are expensive, but you can send 15 on fortress if you really want to fatten them.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by deleted_user0 »

Interjection wrote:Actually, @deleted_user to summarise Jerom's argument (why are you called momuu now?) his point is
"In imperial with all basic upgrades the mill gathering rate actually reaches 1.3 food per second, almost nullifying the return rate for sheeps. At this point I severely doubt sheeping up is worth it anymore. I also fear that the scenario where you can actually spare 500++ food for 6 minutes almost never happens when players are not in imperial with most upgrades already (after all, aging up to imperial or getting a crucial imperial upgrade earlier than the opponent is gamewinning; it will punish the 500f investment)."


Very basically: it's never worth investing in sheep, especially early in the game as you won't get anything back for ~6mins. It might be worth it in the very very late game but actually it isn't because fully upgraded mills are better and significantly less micro intensive.

______________

I don't think that livestock should be thought of as a totally alternative food income which can replace hunts / mills. I think that any kind of buff should aim to make livestock something where, if you think you can get away with it, you can sneak in 2 or 3 sheep to edge out a slight advantage later. Basically an alternative way to boom. Trouble is they're just so expensive at the moment and take so long fatten.

I don't think livestock should be relegated to treaty. Pens were in the original game before treaty even became a thing.

Obviously any change would need to not break the game in combination with those cards.


It's totally worth it in the situation that I'm talking about. Even if the net gain is small, it saves your natural hunts longer, because you have 2-3 vils gathering sheep instead of hunt, which means that the time you'll have to go mills (which even if not better than mills early on, is simply just more convenient). And as we know, the basic rule of sup = whomever goes mills first will lose the game.

i agree that its not worth to do this if you have to build a pen strictly for this. but if you have a pen already and have free livestock, then it is.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by pecelot »

@duckzilla , but you pretty much never send livestock cards as the British. Treaty is another thing since it has its own patch and balance, so I think we shouldn't worry too much about certain choices being rendered overpowered there.

The problem I see with livestock is that by default you're able to train only sheep, which are the worst in terms of investment/gain ratio, as they cost 300 food. How about decreasing their cost to 80—60 food? Either from start or by a certain upgrade (perhaps steel traps could have such an additional effect).
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

Some more thoughts. Could these shipments also effect livestock harvest rate? It's not like they're super powerful cards, though they do sit on edge of viability. I don't really see this tipping them over the edge but anything that buffs Age 2 play I think is interesting.

Furrier (Age I)
-Improves berry bush gather rate by 20%
-Improves hunt gather rate by 15%
-Improves livestock gather rate by 20%

Spice Trade: (Age II)
-Improves berry bush gather rate by 20%
-Improves hunt gather ate by 20%
-Improves livestock gather rate by 20%

___________________

Note: Looking forward to seeing a berry bush map, these cards could be interesting.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

Hold the phone, I just checked this. Livestock pen build xp is 50. Barracks build xp is 20 (along with all other 200w buildings)

So looks like the pen offers a very slight xp bonus when built which is interesting.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by edeholland »

Interjection wrote:Hold the phone, I just checked this. Livestock pen build xp is 50. Barracks build xp is 20 (along with all other 200w buildings)

So looks like the pen offers a very slight xp bonus when built which is interesting.

You sure it's 50xp and not 40xp? What is the destroy xp reward?

In general, military buildings give 10% of their cost as xp. So a 200w barracks or stable gives 20xp and a 300w art foundry gives 30xp. Other buildings gives 20% of their cost as xp, meaning a 400w capitol gives 80xp, a 800w plantation gives 160xp etc
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Great Britain Interjection
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

Here
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by princeofkabul »

Interjection wrote:Some more thoughts. Could these shipments also effect livestock harvest rate? It's not like they're super powerful cards, though they do sit on edge of viability. I don't really see this tipping them over the edge but anything that buffs Age 2 play I think is interesting.

Furrier (Age I)
-Improves berry bush gather rate by 20%
-Improves hunt gather rate by 15%
-Improves livestock gather rate by 20%

Spice Trade: (Age II)
-Improves berry bush gather rate by 20%
-Improves hunt gather ate by 20%
-Improves livestock gather rate by 20%

___________________

Note: Looking forward to seeing a berry bush map, these cards could be interesting.


It's not like you would run into a problem in supremacy that your vills are gathering your livestock too slowly.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

@deleted_user2 The issue I'm trying to address is how training livestock from the pen can be made better. Increasing the gather rate of livestock actually helps a surprising amount.

Here you can see that a sheep tasked to a pen is worth 0.64 villager seconds. But it's not like having an extra half a vil gathering because you have to wait 428s (6 mins) before you can gather it.

It does matter 1.png
\

Here though, you can see a 40% increase in gather speed actually effectively doubles the value of the sheep tasked to the pen. It doesn't have to be cards that increase the speed. The Selective Breeding upgrade could do this too. Even Hunting Dogs and Steel traps. The point is, if sheep are to ever be trained in supremacy then they need a buff. Maybe that's gather rates. Maybe it's something else.

It does matter 2.png
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

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Post by deleted_user0 »

why am I tagged here
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

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Post by Interjection »

:lol: :lol: Hahaha, you're both Fins and it blurs in my mind

I'm really sorry.

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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by edeholland »

Interjection wrote:@deleted_user2 The issue I'm trying to address is how training livestock from the pen can be made better. Increasing the gather rate of livestock actually helps a surprising amount.

Here you can see that a sheep tasked to a pen is worth 0.64 villager seconds. But it's not like having an extra half a vil gathering because you have to wait 428s (6 mins) before you can gather it.

It does matter 1.png
\

Here though, you can see a 40% increase in gather speed actually effectively doubles the value of the sheep tasked to the pen. It doesn't have to be cards that increase the speed. The Selective Breeding upgrade could do this too. Even Hunting Dogs and Steel traps. The point is, if sheep are to ever be trained in supremacy then they need a buff. Maybe that's gather rates. Maybe it's something else.

It does matter 2.png



You didn't increase the hunt gather rate in your example, which would also be buffed by 35%.
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Great Britain Interjection
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

This is true, whoops.

The point is still relevant though. A small increase in livestock gather speed makes the pen way more efficient.

If anything, this shows that since so few food improvements effect livestock they really are quite bad

EDIT: Even taking in Ede's correction, it's still surprisingly more efficient
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Gendarme »

Pretty sure they are both Somalis.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by momuuu »

@Interjection you need to actually calculate how much more food you get when gathering livestock compared to normal food, and then look at how much 'profit' livestock gave you by subtracting the investment cost. Thats the most relevant number.

The problem with actually using or buffing cards is that it still wouldnt be worth it to send a card that improves something that is bad to begin with if you can also send a card that improves something that is good already.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by dansil92 »

Interjection wrote:Some more thoughts. Could these shipments also effect livestock harvest rate? It's not like they're super powerful cards, though they do sit on edge of viability. I don't really see this tipping them over the edge but anything that buffs Age 2 play I think is interesting.

Furrier (Age I)
-Improves berry bush gather rate by 20%
-Improves hunt gather rate by 15%
-Improves livestock gather rate by 20%

Spice Trade: (Age II)
-Improves berry bush gather rate by 20%
-Improves hunt gather ate by 20%
-Improves livestock gather rate by 20%

___________________

Note: Looking forward to seeing a berry bush map, these cards could be interesting.



What If the card "ranching" (lets you train cow/llamas) gave that effect? Or even acted like that navajo tech that increases fattening and gather rates? Then an age 1 card could be used? I quite like the idea of livestock being viable in supremacy, especially for dutch with their smaller eco
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by momuuu »

The best improvement for livestock is the ranching card. Cows only cost 80f and give 500f, so if you would make 3 cows (vs 5 sheep), you would get 1500 food of herdables for only 240f investment. With sheep, compared to hunting and taking a ~100f delay into account, you would gather 700 food more than you would hunting the same amount of time and thus turn a 200f profit. For cows, this would be a 460f profit, more than double that for sheep.

To get 460 food profit with sheep, you would have to gather much faster. In the time you gather sheep, hunts should give 440 food (or roughly 440 vs). Thus the gather rate should be ~1400/440 ~ 3.18. In other words, the gather rate for livestock should be improved by 59% to get the same effect. Note that this is an approximation, because increasing gather rate also slightly reduces the food loss but that makes the calculations much harder. Id estimate it might actually round the number down to something like 55%. Clearly buffing livestock gathering rate isnt going to make livestock viable: we already have the ranching card that basically represents an imperial upgrade to gather rates for livestock.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by momuuu »

This is the general formula for profit:

[profit] = [fmax] - [fmax] * [huntgatheringrate]/[herdablegatheringrate] - [herdablecost]

which can be rewritten, using gatheringfraction instead of huntgatheringrate/herdablegatheringrate, as:

[profit] = [fmax] * (1 - [gatheringfraction]) - [herdablecost]

In other words, there are three ways to increase the profit: increasing fmax (and thus basically investing more), but more interesting either increasing the herdable gathering rate compared to normal food gathering rate or by reducing the herdable cost.

EDIT: This should probably be rewritten as

[profit]/[herdablecost] + 1 = [fmax]/[herdablecost] * ( 1 - [gatheringfraction])

The left side of the formula is actually the amount with which the initial investment is multiplied. So it might for example be 1.3, which means that a 500 food investment will result in a 30% profit.
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Re: Fattening and Decay Rate

Post by Interjection »

That's useful, thanks.

Sheep are terrible and horribly over costed

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