Pull" Trick" discussion

[gibson]

I meant that rules for that are the same, right? in order to increase unit's speed, you have to group it with a faster one

constant means fixed value. I believe the word you're looking for is consistent

[Hazza54321]

doesnt the clip prove how kinda stupid it can be

[Kaiserklein]

No it's just what you deserve for trying to catch units with cease fire and no cav

[Hazza54321]

well i also meant mine too

[gibson]

doesnt the clip prove how kinda stupid it can be

Yea i dont understand how people can see these clips and think this is how the game is meant to be played

[macacoalbino]

No it's just what you deserve for trying to catch units with cease fire and no cav

Don't gates serve that purpose?

[Mitoe]

I can't see how you can say that it should be changed. Removing or significantly nerfing the pull trick would be the single largest change the game has ever received.

Let's be totally frank. The pull trick is one of the only worthwhile micro mechanics in the game that actually requires some thought and skill to execute; shouldn't we embrace it? We all know AoE3 is seriously lacking in this area compared to other RTS games already, and it seems to me like the people who don't like the mechanic are probably the ones who don't want to feel like at some point in time the pull trick will be so good or relevant that they themselves will have to learn to incorporate into their play regularly, when really there's absolutely no way it can be that broken.

You can't really pull cannons when they're in bombard mode, either; that clip isn't even that big of a deal. If Tabben had played differently or been willing to go for a different unit composition he had very good chances to win: saying that the mechanic is broken because you can use it to outrun pure musketeer (one of the slowest units in the game) with unpacked cannons is silly. It's not like you're hitting and running with the cannons or anything, that would surely be stupid.

[tabben]

Yep, Tabben didn't really adapt at all. He was likely planning to just mass seopys regardless of what Kaiserklein did that game.

They mislabeled the Gurkha hotkey "Urumi swordsman" for a reason, it's a hint. Clearly the developers did not intend players to actually train Gurkhas, but instead train sepoy and ship urumis. It's all in the game files.

[Mitoe]

Yep, Tabben didn't really adapt at all. He was likely planning to just mass seopys regardless of what Kaiserklein did that game.

They mislabeled the Gurkha hotkey "Urumi swordsman" for a reason, it's a hint. Clearly the developers did not intend players to actually train Gurkhas, but instead train sepoy and ship urumis. It's all in the game files.

Yes, and clearly you should never play the game in a way that the developers didn't intend; that would be heretical.

[Garja]

I can't see how you can say that it should be changed. Removing or significantly nerfing the pull trick would be the single largest change the game has ever received.

Let's be totally frank. The pull trick is one of the only worthwhile micro mechanics in the game that actually requires some thought and skill to execute; shouldn't we embrace it? We all know AoE3 is seriously lacking in this area compared to other RTS games already, and it seems to me like the people who don't like the mechanic are probably the ones who don't want to feel like at some point in time the pull trick will be so good or relevant that they themselves will have to learn to incorporate into their play regularly, when really there's absolutely no way it can be that broken.

You can't really pull cannons when they're in bombard mode, either; that clip isn't even that big of a deal. If Tabben had played differently or been willing to go for a different unit composition he had very good chances to win: saying that the mechanic is broken because you can use it to outrun pure musketeer (one of the slowest units in the game) with unpacked cannons is silly. It's not like you're hitting and running with the cannons or anything, that would surely be stupid.

Well, aoe3 isnt't exactly lacking in the micro depertament. But anyway I'm not too sure that gameplay is better after pull trick became widespread. I kinda liked the old micro without it.
The trick is heavily (ab)usable not just for fancy stuff like fusilliers+cannons. You can use it with chokunu-pikes and chokunus basically kite everything forever. Can be used with skirm and ruyters (since ruyters are many) and it's insane. It can be game breaking.
I would like to see the effect of nerfing the maxspeed.

[Mitoe]

Oh please, the game is hardly any different as a result of the pull trick: I've been using it for years at this point and there are very few games where it's had enough of an impact to determine the outcome on its own. The 50 unit selection limit is more than enough to keep the mechanic under control.

Also don't see how CKN + Pike could possibly kite forever with the pull trick when the difference in speed is 0.5, and CKN only have 16 range. The value would you get out of doing this would be minimal, at best; you can't outrun cavalry at 5 speed, and you already outrun most infantry units without pulling. That's not to say it's not worth it to pull CKN with pikes, but I can't see how it would be game breaking.

Have we seen a single matchup in the game where it has become meta to use the pull trick to make your strategy work? No, of course not, because relying on it is a bad idea. You can only do it with smaller numbers of units and if it really is your intention to abuse it to the fullest, then you have to develop your unit composition accordingly: as in, train more cavalry than ranged infantry or something similar, which opens itself up to other problem especially as your army approaches sizes where the pull trick becomes extremely difficult to pull off or downright isn't worth it.

[Garja]

I dont think it needs to define the meta to be game breaking. But on this note skirm goons is the combo that benefits the most and I dont think it needs further incentives.

[Mitoe]

That sounds like a potential problem with skirm/goon, not the pull trick.

[Hazza54321]

It covers up blantant mistakes, like a mismicro, or not watching units or saving herding vills when really you should be punished for being a jackass by leaving it exposed, or you can use it for major treasure swings, or to save your hero when you need a tp , the shit adds up fast, kaiser saved about 2k res just by dragboxing dont you think thats broken as fuck

[momuuu]

Removing or significantly nerfing the pull trick would be the single largest change the game has ever received.

Oh please, the game is hardly any different as a result of the pull trick

[Kaiserklein]

You can't really pull cannons when they're in bombard mode, either; that clip isn't even that big of a deal. If Tabben had played differently or been willing to go for a different unit composition he had very good chances to win: saying that the mechanic is broken because you can use it to outrun pure musketeer (one of the slowest units in the game) with unpacked cannons is silly. It's not like you're hitting and running with the cannons or anything, that would surely be stupid.

Yeah I actually totally agree on that point and I think it's stupid that everyone takes cannons as an example of how broken the pull trick can be. You literally won't ever pull cannons like I did, unless you escape from a cease fire, or if you wanna cross the map faster with them. In any other case, they will be sitting in shooting mode, so you won't be able to use the pull trick on them.
What's much better is to pull skirms. You can pull them while hit and running and that's scary.

[Kaiserklein]

Removing or significantly nerfing the pull trick would be the single largest change the game has ever received.

Oh please, the game is hardly any different as a result of the pull trick

Yeah because removing the pull trick would necessarily totally break the formations system. It would make grouping so different, I agree with Mitoe that it would be a huge change.
However, the pull trick itself, as a mechanic, doesn't totally change the game.

[macacoalbino]

Except it would not break it as the game already makes formations by slowing forward units... the difference is that will be the only way of making formations... Also, it could be agreed that it would just get nerfed instead of removed, in which case nothing would happen @Kaiserklein

Also you guys seem to fail to recognize 2 points:
1. Pull trick favors the worst player.
2. You can extract A LOT of value out of this mechanic. Way more than explorer fast shooting which we decided to ban.

About point 1, as some ppl explained i cant count the ammount of villagers I saved from raids using that, outruning cavalry with a running vill (how does that make any sense, really?); how many times i didnt pay attention to my cavalry and was able to save some by pulling the snared hussars forward with the unsnared ones.

[macacoalbino]

To me the discussion shouldt be whether the mechanic is legit or not, and if it should get removed or not.
To me, the discussion should be wether the mechanic is op or not, and if it should be nerfed or not.
But hey, thats just my opinion

[pecelot]

I meant that rules for that are the same, right? in order to increase unit's speed, you have to group it with a faster one

constant means fixed value. I believe the word you're looking for is consistent

yes, thanks

I meant that rules for that are the same, right? in order to increase unit's speed, you have to group it with a faster one

No, you just have to group it with a larger group of units, as I understand it

which is also legit, as units have to get into formation

[Goodspeed]

You could just slow the bigger group down instead..

[Garja]

I think that already happens to some extent, but when the pulling unit is faster it isn't very relevant.
Just nerf the max speed and see the difference.

[Kaiserklein]

@macacoalbino yes, I already mentioned that we could nerf the pull trick, if it's proven op. Just saying that trying to remove it is totally dumb. Even if the group in front slows down to wait for the group behind, I'm pretty sure it would feel horribly slow and too different from the formation system we have now.
Pull trick doesn't favor the lower player though. It takes apm and accuracy to perform. The basic pull trick is not hard to do, but try to hit and run constantly with skirms while pulling, and you'll see it's not that easy.

[91]

You can't remove it without major redesign.

I'm pretty sure it exists to help pathing, not to do long distance pull tricks.

Imagine you walk 30 units and they're formed like a square. Now turn slightly left while walking. Every single unit to the right would fall behind due to longer distance, and the formation would have to completely break.

The other option is to slow down units to let the rest catch up in normal speed. But that means it will be super common that armies slow down every second, unless you walk absolutely straigh at all times.

Edit: to be clear, it's obviously not only when you turn right or left. Units bump into each other all the time and fall behind a step or 2. Without the speed up the formation would also break, and your army would either be constantly slower, or (if not slowing them down) be insanely spread out when walking somewhere (aoe2 style? )

[Kaiserklein]

Exactly, it obviously wasn't intended to pull units, but it's the way aoe pathing and grouping works. And yeah everything would have to slow down whenever you rotate your army, whenever you dragbox any amount of units together, whenever your units switch from line to column formation...