Pull" Trick" discussion

[Cometk]

Vills should walk at 4 speed. Being able to teleport them goes against constant stats. I think it should be banned from tournaments, or at least not accepted by the community

[gibson]

I guess trying to have a serious conversation is useless if you're going to be a sarcastic idiotic ass.

[Mitoe]

Nice you've both just completely, and seemly intentionally, ignored my point and brought up a piece of irrelevant information that's been brought up over and over and over again. Why does anything happen in the game? Because its coded in the game. No shit Sherlock.

I didn't ignore your point. Your point is that AoE3 game stats remain constant? Clearly, they don't. In fact, they never have. Max Run Velocity has been a stat in the game since day 1.

Obviously bugs happen because of the way they're coded--usually by mistake--but this is so clearly intentionally coded into the game that I can't see how you can label it as a bug.

Many people in this thread have tried to argue that it's unlikely that pulling units this way was an unintended feature of a stat meant to make unit formations more cohesive. We don't know this for sure; if anything it's just as likely that there was no cap when they were initially creating the mechanics upon which the formations function, and they saw how fast they could run to catch up to a group of units and the devs were like, "Oh hey, I could see how this could be abused, but it could be kind of cool, too; what if we just cap it?" That would explain why each unit follows a clearly defined rule of being capable of sprinting 50% faster than their base speed, and having animations to match this.

[gibson]

The implication was that stats relevant stats to combat stay the same throughout combat except under certain circumstances and how pulling units is drastically different from all other circumstances because its free and happens purely because of a pattern of clicks.

[Mitoe]

I guess I honestly can't comprehend what you're trying to argue at this point :/

It's not free. I've already explained the limitations, and in return for speeding up your units it does slow down the units pulling them, albeit very slightly.

[Mitoe]

If you want proof that it was intended, here's a post from an Ensemble employee about the pull mechanic and the snare mechanic on heavengames back in 2005:


Heavengames thread is here:
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,24371,0,10


The debatable part is whether its effect on balance is "negligible" like he claims, and most of the time I think it is: again, note how the pull trick has not determined the meta for any specific matchup--relying on it as a part of your strategy is not worth it. There are, of course, some other things about it that he overlooks (no unit is "fighting" when they are moving, regardless of whether or not it is while [re]joining a formation or not), but it was clearly 100% an intended game mechanic.

[Papist]

Nope. Pull trick was intended to work exactly this way, it's how it was coded, and it's necessary for the units to move properly. The devs did intend units to run fast towards each other to group together when close enough. Obviously though, they didn't expect people would use it for micro purposes

Yes, this is the point I have been trying to make this entire time. So what are we arguing about

Alt+d was never intended to even exist. It's just a bug that was never patched. And if we had ways to fix it nicely, it wouldn't exist on EP.

So these are not comparable.

Yes, of course it wasn't supposed to exist. But neither was the pull trick. Obviously alt d is way more broken than pulling, but that doesn't change the fact that they're the same thing -- exploits.

[deleted_user0]

If you want proof that it was intended, here's a post from an Ensemble employee about the pull mechanic and the snare mechanic on heavengames back in 2005:


Heavengames thread is here:
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,24371,0,10


The debatable part is whether its effect on balance is "negligible" like he claims, and most of the time I think it is: again, note how the pull trick has not determined the meta for any specific matchup--relying on it as a part of your strategy is not worth it. There are, of course, some other things about it that he overlooks (no unit is "fighting" when they are moving, regardless of whether or not it is while [re]joining a formation or not), but it was clearly 100% an intended game mechanic.

it's wrong though, you can pull it from one edge of the map to the other, indefinitely. So not for a short duration or distance at all. And it actually supports the claim that it was intended for formations, as 91 explained, and not for micro purposes. He doesn't mention anything about using the speeding up of units to micro or get out of a snare. In fact it would be really weird if that was intended, because pull trick mechanic directly obsoletes the snare mechanic. It would be very poor game design if both of them are working as intended.

It's just semantics whether its bug exploit or not. It definitely has an impact. We can safely assume the devs did not intend it, but even if they did, that is irrelevant as they were completely clueless about how to make a proper game anyway, so even if intended, it can still be eligble for a nerf or a change.

it's definitely a broken mechanic if not an outright exploit. You can tell, as it directly undermines the snare mechanic, which as the post points out, is in the game for a reason. With pulling, you can pull yourself out of a snare, which is something which shouldn't be possible. This imo is the main objection to pull tricks, the micro part is just a sideshow. If your explorer is snared, you shouldnt be able to pull yourself out of it, the same for other units.

but i dont see how to fix it without seriously messing with formations and pathing which are suboptimal to begin with already.

so its best to leave it as is imo, and maybe petition MS to fix it in the DE version

[deleted_user]

I remember the discord voice chat with Ryan and Mike when they realized they can pull skirmishers with uhlans for 6.5 speed and hearing "this is huge, we can't tell anyone." I'm not sure which event was ongoing then, but both were still in it. I bet neither won. ~2 years ago.

[deleted_user0]

I remember the discord voice chat with Ryan and Mike when they realized they can pull skirmishers with uhlans for 6.5 speed and hearing "this is huge, we can't tell anyone." I'm not sure which event was ongoing then, but both were still in it. I bet neither won. ~2 years ago.

sounds like mitoe and me talking about supercharged monitors.

[deleted_user]

I didn't spill the beans

[deleted_user]

I might have spilled the beans, I don't know.

[Cometk]

I guess trying to have a serious conversation is useless if you're going to be a sarcastic idiotic ass.

I will fully admit that I'm behaving like a douchebag, however my point is absolutely serious. I don't understand how villwarping wouldn't go against your principle of unit stats being constant. One could argue that being able to garrison villagers inside the TC was only intended to be for the defense and safety of villagers, not a mechanism to be used for circumventing their slow walk and to save villager seconds in the early game. And I can guarantee you villwarping has a significant impact on the game. I doubt many top players would win a lot of games if they whole-sale stopped villwarping. The negative ramifications of losing so much efficiency in Age 1 would snowball even into the deep stages of a match, by my account.

[Mitoe]

I remember the discord voice chat with Ryan and Mike when they realized they can pull skirmishers with uhlans for 6.5 speed and hearing "this is huge, we can't tell anyone." I'm not sure which event was ongoing then, but both were still in it. I bet neither won. ~2 years ago.

Haha, good times. Coincidentally this also happened to be the only game in which it was ever super relevant in any of the hundreds of games I played with Ryan after this. Thought it would've been bigger at the time.

I think it was the one we ended up playing each other in the quarters. I lost :(

[Mitoe]

it's wrong though, you can pull it from one edge of the map to the other, indefinitely. So not for a short duration or distance at all. And it actually supports the claim that it was intended for formations, as 91 explained, and not for micro purposes. He doesn't mention anything about using the speeding up of units to micro or get out of a snare. In fact it would be really weird if that was intended, because pull trick mechanic directly obsoletes the snare mechanic. It would be very poor game design if both of them are working as intended.

It's just semantics whether its bug exploit or not. It definitely has an impact. We can safely assume the devs did not intend it, but even if they did, that is irrelevant as they were completely clueless about how to make a proper game anyway, so even if intended, it can still be eligble for a nerf or a change.

it's definitely a broken mechanic if not an outright exploit. You can tell, as it directly undermines the snare mechanic, which as the post points out, is in the game for a reason. With pulling, you can pull yourself out of a snare, which is something which shouldn't be possible. This imo is the main objection to pull tricks, the micro part is just a sideshow. If your explorer is snared, you shouldnt be able to pull yourself out of it, the same for other units.

but i dont see how to fix it without seriously messing with formations and pathing which are suboptimal to begin with already.

so its best to leave it as is imo, and maybe petition MS to fix it in the DE version

Personally, I don't think escaping snares with it is a negative; that's a positive for me. Or do you think that having your 390hp explorer chased across the entire map by their 400hp explorer is engaging gameplay? Plus pulling units out of snare is really only relevant in age 1 where your units damage is so small but hp so high that it's even worth trying.

Everyone just seems so scared of this mechanic, and being one of the few people who has actually invested any amount of time into figuring out how it works and how best you can abuse it, I just can't see how removing the pull trick from the game could be anything other than negative for a game that's already arguably lacking in decent micro maneuvers.Why should we be trying to make the game easier? It's already rarely game-changing.

[Cometk]

Here are some facts

Alt-D
- There are two designed explorer revive mechanics in AoE3. One is from the Town Center and allows you to pay a ransom that costs you 100c, gifts your opponent 100c, and delivers your explorer back to your TC with full HP. For Asian and Native civs this is even more costly or requires a firepit dance. The other mechanic involves bringing a unit near the downed explorer while he is above a certain threshold of hitpoints, after which the explorer has a programmed animation where he stands up, brushes himself off, and continues on about his day.
- Alt-D circumvents the ransom, circumvents the standing-up animation, does not require units to be near the explorer, and can be done at any time without having had to recharge hitpoints. It also permanently limits the explorer's LOS to that of his LOS when he was fallen on the ground. It is activated out of a different game mechanic (unit stances) that is irrelevant to the aforementioned revive mechanics.

Pull trick
- Every unit is programmed with a max velocity that allows them to run faster than their normal listed speed. There is a dedicated animation for running that units perform when they are dragboxed together and try to catch up with the formation.

Here are some opinions

Cometk
By all accounts, Alt-D is the exact opposite of the fluidly programmed mechanics that we know were intentionally designed for the revive feature. This is a big dissimilarity between Alt-D and the pull trick. Whether the pull trick is done accidentally by a corporal in a 3v3 deccan game or by Kaiserklein and his fusilier/falc composition in a showmatch, the pull mechanic is working exactly how it's supposed to as was defined by the developers when they decided on this max velocity stat. It doesn't matter if it's in regards to aesthetics or balance, the mechanic is working - the units are running into formation.

For the record, I think that because Alt-D is still in the game and there is no official developer support to patch it out, and despite how ugly I think it is, it's still to some degree a valid mechanic. Using a bug by itself is not necessarily cheating. However, when a mechanic/bug is banned in a tournament, whether or not that ban is warranted, its usage is cheating. With that said, I think culture plays a big impact on deciding what we do and don't like in AoE3 - and consequently what we do and don't ban in tournaments. Most people agree that Alt-D is an ugly, obnoxious mechanic. I personally don't care to vouch for its unbanning in tournaments.

[deleted_user0]

it's wrong though, you can pull it from one edge of the map to the other, indefinitely. So not for a short duration or distance at all. And it actually supports the claim that it was intended for formations, as 91 explained, and not for micro purposes. He doesn't mention anything about using the speeding up of units to micro or get out of a snare. In fact it would be really weird if that was intended, because pull trick mechanic directly obsoletes the snare mechanic. It would be very poor game design if both of them are working as intended.

It's just semantics whether its bug exploit or not. It definitely has an impact. We can safely assume the devs did not intend it, but even if they did, that is irrelevant as they were completely clueless about how to make a proper game anyway, so even if intended, it can still be eligble for a nerf or a change.

it's definitely a broken mechanic if not an outright exploit. You can tell, as it directly undermines the snare mechanic, which as the post points out, is in the game for a reason. With pulling, you can pull yourself out of a snare, which is something which shouldn't be possible. This imo is the main objection to pull tricks, the micro part is just a sideshow. If your explorer is snared, you shouldnt be able to pull yourself out of it, the same for other units.

but i dont see how to fix it without seriously messing with formations and pathing which are suboptimal to begin with already.

so its best to leave it as is imo, and maybe petition MS to fix it in the DE version

Personally, I don't think escaping snares with it is a negative; that's a positive for me. Or do you think that having your 390hp explorer chased across the entire map by their 400hp explorer is engaging gameplay? Plus pulling units out of snare is really only relevant in age 1 where your units damage is so small but hp so high that it's even worth trying.

Everyone just seems so scared of this mechanic, and being one of the few people who has actually invested any amount of time into figuring out how it works and how best you can abuse it, I just can't see how removing the pull trick from the game could be anything other than negative for a game that's already arguably lacking in decent micro maneuvers.Why should we be trying to make the game easier? It's already rarely game-changing.

whatever it means to you is irrelevant. He explains 2 mechanics, the way mechanic 1 is used now 100% defeats the purpose of mechanic 2. That's bad game design. Intended or not. He explains accurately why the snare mechanic is in the game. With pull tricking, you circumvent this, as you can pull infantry out of range of cavalry without the snare taking effect because cavalry stops when they attack as well as because of pathing.

I'm not scared of the mechanic, that's irrelevant. I also didn't say it should be removed right now. In any case, using cavalry properly is actually one of the most "difficult" things in aoe, so by your logic, the pull trick makes this game easier anyway. It's super easy to avoid a higher hp explorer in age 1, so by your logic, not getting punished for sleeping on the ball because you can use pull trick shouldn't be possible, the game is already too easy.

[Mitoe]

I don't think it really devalues cavalry all that much. If you're trying to pull your skirms away from cavalry (you're probably pulling with goons?) that means that you're also not going to be attacking that cavalry with your dragoons. Not to mention you really can't pull more than 20-24 units effectively.

The mechanic really does have limitations, but it doesn't seem like anyone is acknowledging that those limitations exist.

[deleted_user0]

idc whether it does or doesn't tbh. I was just responding to the statement that it was intended, and that this was supported by the screenshot you posted. Imo, it does exactly the opposite.

As I said, imo the best thing is to just leave it be for now, and see if it gets fixed if DE ever comes out.

[momuuu]

If you want proof that it was intended, here's a post from an Ensemble employee about the pull mechanic and the snare mechanic on heavengames back in 2005:


Heavengames thread is here:
http://aoe3.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=1,24371,0,10


The debatable part is whether its effect on balance is "negligible" like he claims, and most of the time I think it is: again, note how the pull trick has not determined the meta for any specific matchup--relying on it as a part of your strategy is not worth it. There are, of course, some other things about it that he overlooks (no unit is "fighting" when they are moving, regardless of whether or not it is while [re]joining a formation or not), but it was clearly 100% an intended game mechanic.

Thie is actually proof that the way it is currently used was 100% unintended. The line 'neglible balance' gives it away, as pull trick is huge.

[momuuu]

Here are some facts

Alt-D
- There are two designed explorer revive mechanics in AoE3. One is from the Town Center and allows you to pay a ransom that costs you 100c, gifts your opponent 100c, and delivers your explorer back to your TC with full HP. For Asian and Native civs this is even more costly or requires a firepit dance. The other mechanic involves bringing a unit near the downed explorer while he is above a certain threshold of hitpoints, after which the explorer has a programmed animation where he stands up, brushes himself off, and continues on about his day.
- Alt-D circumvents the ransom, circumvents the standing-up animation, does not require units to be near the explorer, and can be done at any time without having had to recharge hitpoints. It also permanently limits the explorer's LOS to that of his LOS when he was fallen on the ground. It is activated out of a different game mechanic (unit stances) that is irrelevant to the aforementioned revive mechanics.

Pull trick
- Every unit is programmed with a max velocity that allows them to run faster than their normal listed speed. There is a dedicated animation for running that units perform when they are dragboxed together and try to catch up with the formation.

Here are some opinions

Cometk
By all accounts, Alt-D is the exact opposite of the fluidly programmed mechanics that we know were intentionally designed for the revive feature. This is a big dissimilarity between Alt-D and the pull trick. Whether the pull trick is done accidentally by a corporal in a 3v3 deccan game or by Kaiserklein and his fusilier/falc composition in a showmatch, the pull mechanic is working exactly how it's supposed to as was defined by the developers when they decided on this max velocity stat. It doesn't matter if it's in regards to aesthetics or balance, the mechanic is working - the units are running into formation.

For the record, I think that because Alt-D is still in the game and there is no official developer support to patch it out, and despite how ugly I think it is, it's still to some degree a valid mechanic. Using a bug by itself is not necessarily cheating. However, when a mechanic/bug is banned in a tournament, whether or not that ban is warranted, its usage is cheating. With that said, I think culture plays a big impact on deciding what we do and don't like in AoE3 - and consequently what we do and don't ban in tournaments. Most people agree that Alt-D is an ugly, obnoxious mechanic. I personally don't care to vouch for its unbanning in tournaments.

Tbh, pull trick is also circumventing the mechanics of the game. There are shipments and upgrades to increase the speed of units and there are units that have larger speed than others for a reason. These mechanics are broken because if one abuses the code that forces units to stay in formation, the disparity between cav/skirmishers is actually almost entirely removed. Note that its not actually possible to use the pull trick aggressively with engaging melee units. It really goes against the game design. Why would we pay a serious price for hand cavalry which are supposed to be fast when in practice a good player can make skirms move almost as quickly? Why would one ever get the arsenal speed upgrade when pull trick exists? This is directly against the mechanics of the game.

[Kaiserklein]

Nope. Pull trick was intended to work exactly this way, it's how it was coded, and it's necessary for the units to move properly. The devs did intend units to run fast towards each other to group together when close enough. Obviously though, they didn't expect people would use it for micro purposes

Yes, this is the point I have been trying to make this entire time. So what are we arguing about

Alt+d was never intended to even exist. It's just a bug that was never patched. And if we had ways to fix it nicely, it wouldn't exist on EP.

So these are not comparable.

Yes, of course it wasn't supposed to exist. But neither was the pull trick. Obviously alt d is way more broken than pulling, but that doesn't change the fact that they're the same thing -- exploits.

Well like cometk mentioned, they probably also didn't expect people to teleport vils through the tc. They didn't expect people to delete pillars. Also when you research stagecoach, the XP travois finishes the tp line instantly one last time, so if you time your stagecoach properly, you get an extra XP pass in your TPs; I doubt they intended people to abuse that. And there's more examples; should these all be considered exploits and forbidden like alt+d?

There's a difference between abusing an intended mechanic to an extent that wasn't expected, like the last 3 I mentioned and the pull trick, and abusing an obvious bug, like alt+d or the crackshot glitch. It's not comparable.

[supahons]

personal opinon:
1) alt-d = ridiculous exploit, makes the ransom useless + cancels the predictability of the explorer position
2) crackshot-montior abuse = ridiculous exploit
3) pulltrick = side effect of the max velocity in the code, can be abused and makes skirms better, let's vills escape, saves units that usually wouldn't survive, not as bad as 1) + 2) but i wouldn't mind if it gets nerfed if needed
4) treasure creeping with side-stepping - definitely not the best game design, part of the game now, i don't expect a complete change to the treasures in the game

I think we can agree that all are minor/major flaws in the game design.
It could be fixed with an official patch, but i don't think that they will do it, so in the end this is a question for the EP balance team and the tournament admins.

[Garja]

Personally, I don't think escaping snares with it is a negative; that's a positive for me. Or do you think that having your 390hp explorer chased across the entire map by their 400hp explorer is engaging gameplay? Plus pulling units out of snare is really only relevant in age 1 where your units damage is so small but hp so high that it's even worth trying.

Everyone just seems so scared of this mechanic, and being one of the few people who has actually invested any amount of time into figuring out how it works and how best you can abuse it, I just can't see how removing the pull trick from the game could be anything other than negative for a game that's already arguably lacking in decent micro maneuvers.Why should we be trying to make the game easier? It's already rarely game-changing.

As I said before, the pull trick does feel wrong often times. Just makes kiting skirms even better and potential cav switches more useless, for example.
Getting away from snaring is 50-50, sometimes good sometimes bad. At least without pulling trick there was consistency.
In general I'm not sure it actually adds much to the game in terms of making it more skillful. Regardless of that we should check what happens if maxspeed gets nerfed.

[bwinner]

If ep nerfs pull trick I will switch to vp or make my own patch