Pull" Trick" discussion

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Italy Garja
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

This has nothing to do with alt-d. Pull trick is a legit mechanic but it skews balance. There are extreme cases where even tho skirms get caught by cav they beat the snare with the pull trick. We need to tweak max speed so that it pulling < snare.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:Yes this again. We should nerf the max speed before the tourney start.

Eagle said earlier in this thread I believe that changing "Max Velocity" effectively does nothing. It's hard-coded somehow.

Changing the pull trick is just such a bad thing for the game anyway.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:This has nothing to do with alt-d. Pull trick is a legit mechanic but it skews balance. There are extreme cases where even tho skirms get caught by cav they beat the snare with the pull trick. We need to tweak max speed so that it pulling < snare.

You can't break snare from cav with pull trick--not with infantry anyway, they're not fast enough even with pull to escape. The individual units which are snared are trapped and get killed while the others get the benefit of the pull and escape.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

It's not bad. Bad is the pull trick honestly. If the mechanic didn't exist the game would be much better. But hey it exists so we have to at least limit to a reasonable level. If max speed doesn't affect pull trick, what's max speed for :hmm:
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

It seems like it determines when units do their sprinting animation or something.

And I disagree that the game would be better without the trick. Formations would simply not work or feel very clunky at best as units would need to slow down a lot more to incorporate smaller groups of units. Plus having a micro mechanic like this is just good for the game in the sense that there's very little micro mechanics to be had already in AoE3 comparatively to other RTS games.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by Garja »

If there wasn't the the pull trick simply 2 groups of units would proceed at the same speed. They wouldn't merge until the one leading completely stops. Which makes completely sense and it is how sc2 works for example. Anyway, that's not the case.
This is one of the micro mechanics that isn't healthy for the game. Not only is looks incredibly dumb when units move at 200% their normal speed but also, as I said, it raises balances issues. Right now pull trick beats snare and that definetely is not good for the game.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by EAGLEMUT »

It's not really technically possible for us to nerf it in the first place, so this is kind of a moot discussion. MaxRunVelocity apparently just sets the proper running animation threshold. I guess removing the formation system from the game would somewhat nerf pull trick, but well...
Also note that unit pulling works the exact same way in AoM and AoEO, and I think to a lesser extent similarly even in AoE2.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

n0el wrote:
Interjection wrote:When this thread started, thought it was a joke. The fact this is serious is so weird
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by gibson »

While its a moot point, theres literally no argument for why it shouldnt be removed(assuming you could remove it at all, and without messing other things up, which seems unlikely,even if you could remove it, which you can't). The only argument in this entire thread for why it shouldnt be removed is that it "takes skill" (it doesn't it takes a small amount of practice). It just breaks game balance when any unit can have 6 or 7 or w.e. speed.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Ashvin »

Yeah, remove an integral part of the game, why don't you guys just make a game for yourself and keep playing it, looks like aoe3 is just not for you.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

gibson wrote:While its a moot point, theres literally no argument for why it shouldnt be removed(assuming you could remove it at all, and without messing other things up, which seems unlikely,even if you could remove it, which you can't). The only argument in this entire thread for why it shouldnt be removed is that it "takes skill" (it doesn't it takes a small amount of practice). It just breaks game balance when any unit can have 6 or 7 or w.e. speed.

what is the argument for removing it? you say it breaks game balance but can you cite reasonable examples where it makes a huge impact (besides the kaiser/tabben fusilier falc situation, which was already a ridiculous one to begin with)
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by gibson »

Cometk wrote:
gibson wrote:While its a moot point, theres literally no argument for why it shouldnt be removed(assuming you could remove it at all, and without messing other things up, which seems unlikely,even if you could remove it, which you can't). The only argument in this entire thread for why it shouldnt be removed is that it "takes skill" (it doesn't it takes a small amount of practice). It just breaks game balance when any unit can have 6 or 7 or w.e. speed.

what is the argument for removing it? you say it breaks game balance but can you cite reasonable examples where it makes a huge impact (besides the kaiser/tabben fusilier falc situation, which was already a ridiculous one to begin with)

Answer this yes/no question with one word. Does it make sense/is it balanced for a unit to be able to move at 1.5x its normal speed given that you have another unit on the field?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Aizamk »

Relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSowOS4Wyg

When a unit dies in formation, the ones behind run to keep formation.
oranges.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

gibson wrote:
Cometk wrote:
gibson wrote:While its a moot point, theres literally no argument for why it shouldnt be removed(assuming you could remove it at all, and without messing other things up, which seems unlikely,even if you could remove it, which you can't). The only argument in this entire thread for why it shouldnt be removed is that it "takes skill" (it doesn't it takes a small amount of practice). It just breaks game balance when any unit can have 6 or 7 or w.e. speed.

what is the argument for removing it? you say it breaks game balance but can you cite reasonable examples where it makes a huge impact (besides the kaiser/tabben fusilier falc situation, which was already a ridiculous one to begin with)

Answer this yes/no question with one word. Does it make sense/is it balanced for a unit to be able to move at 1.5x its normal speed given that you have another unit on the field?

yeah i would sprint the fuck away from a losing fight too
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by tedere12 »

I guess we will never be able to agree on something
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

If it really does break balance you can always just nerf whichever unit types it benefits most. No need to remove or nerf the mechanic itself for that reason.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Aizamk wrote:Relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zSowOS4Wyg

When a unit dies in formation, the ones behind run to keep formation.


Why didnt they shoot back lmao? Must be that fucking attack move bug Garja always talks about!!!
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Italy Garja
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:
Garja wrote:This has nothing to do with alt-d. Pull trick is a legit mechanic but it skews balance. There are extreme cases where even tho skirms get caught by cav they beat the snare with the pull trick. We need to tweak max speed so that it pulling < snare.

You can't break snare from cav with pull trick--not with infantry anyway, they're not fast enough even with pull to escape. The individual units which are snared are trapped and get killed while the others get the benefit of the pull and escape.

To my experience pulling a group of units in order to swap place in their own army totally beats the snare.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Ashvin wrote:Yeah, remove an integral part of the game, why don't you guys just make a game for yourself and keep playing it, looks like aoe3 is just not for you.

Considering that "make a game yourself" is the recent trend of the EP due to idk what intention with aoe3de, this is not even an unrealistic suggestion.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by Garja »

Goodspeed wrote:If it really does break balance you can always just nerf whichever unit types it benefits most. No need to remove or nerf the mechanic itself for that reason.

Point is it works with any unit, but occasionally. Cav vs cav, you can get away by pulling, and not just a little, but a whole screen (saw yesterday on stream).
Cav vs skirm, skirms never get punished as hard as they should even if cav connects well at start.
It's just incredibly lame mechanic and every top player is abusing it at the moment.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by richard »

Cometk wrote:
gibson wrote:Answer this yes/no question with one word. Does it make sense/is it balanced for a unit to be able to move at 1.5x its normal speed given that you have another unit on the field?

yeah i would sprint the fuck away from a losing fight too


You cant even answer a yes/no question with one word if the other person explicitly asks you to do that.

And You want to get solutions to problems by discussing?

That s ridiculous.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

richard wrote:
Cometk wrote:
gibson wrote:Answer this yes/no question with one word. Does it make sense/is it balanced for a unit to be able to move at 1.5x its normal speed given that you have another unit on the field?

yeah i would sprint the fuck away from a losing fight too


You cant even answer a yes/no question with one word if the other person explicitly asks you to do that.

And You want to get solutions to problems by discussing?

That s ridiculous.

i quite clearly answered yes
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

I think I will just twitch clip the shit out of this until this gets fixed in a way or another.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I agree, abusing pull trick is just like abusing the other bugs. As people said, it's quite lame to be able to escape snare. It just doesn't make sense.

@Cometk You would sprint away from a losing fight, right. Now, would you randomly sprint in the middle of the map if you were a doppel? Just for the fun of running. Would you sprint with skirms to catch your opponents' units?
Also tell me, how come you can't sprint away from a losing fight if there aren't cav units near you? Do you run faster because you see the cavalry running?

Honeslty you cannot argue that it makes sense to have such a mechanic. The only argument here is that some people believe that it's a healthy mechanic as it requires skill, and since these people are the guys who make the rules, it won't be nerfed.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

here is an example of a variant of the pull trick that piroshiki does in literally every game he plays. should this be nerfed too, and is it breaking game balance? because nerfing the max velocity run speeds would also affect this.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/392840555

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Honeslty you cannot argue that it makes sense to have such a mechanic. The only argument here is that some people believe that it's a healthy mechanic as it requires skill, and since these people are the guys who make the rules, it won't be nerfed.

no, it's not going to be nerfed because it's impossible to do so without fundamentally breaking the game.
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