Pull" Trick" discussion

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:here is an example of a variant of the pull trick that piroshiki does in literally every game he plays. should this be nerfed too, and is it breaking game balance? because nerfing the max velocity run speeds would also affect this.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/392840555

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Honeslty you cannot argue that it makes sense to have such a mechanic. The only argument here is that some people believe that it's a healthy mechanic as it requires skill, and since these people are the guys who make the rules, it won't be nerfed.

no, it's not going to be nerfed because it's impossible to do so without fundamentally breaking the game.

Well, realistically it doesn't really make sense to be able to do this either. I guess it's fine because it's less abusable.
It's not going to be nerfed because the "EP team", if there is one, doesn't want to nerf it. You can always remove a mechanic. It is impossible to fix the cover mode abuse so it got removed, same should happen with the pull trick.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Couldnt you somehow nerf the max speed of units or something?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

@[Armag] diarouga i don't think you're fathoming exactly how all-encompassing the pull mechanic is in this game, and what its complete removal would entail.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Just ban it at least if it's not possible to technically fix it.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by tabben »

lol
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

Garja wrote:Just ban it at least if it's not possible to technically fix it.

you cannot ban it... it happens every single time you dragbox, whether you are intentionally trying to do it or not. it's not hard to see
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:@[Armag] diarouga i don't think you're fathoming exactly how all-encompassing the pull mechanic is in this game, and what its complete removal would entail.

There is no pull trick in starcraft 2, and it is not an issue at all. Pull trick just makes positioning less important. In starcraft 2 taking a good concave can be game changing because there is no pull trick and being active on the map becomes more important. Like you can save a third of your army thanks to good positioning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECetTlIXLSk

Anyway, this discussion is irrelevant as it won't be removed, but it really should.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by SoldieR »

So groups of units should move at their own speeds and never stay together?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

IAmSoldieR wrote:So groups of units should move at their own speeds and never stay together?

Yes? That's how it works in Starcraft II. It wouldn't bother me at all since I never dragbox all my units, but it would indeed be very hard for the guys who use dragbox to move their army.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

The mechanic totally makes sense lol. If anything it's just a bit too efficient. Would be nice to have it boost the speed by maybe 25% instead of 50% or so, but that's impossible anyway
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Cometk wrote:
Garja wrote:Just ban it at least if it's not possible to technically fix it.

you cannot ban it... it happens every single time you dragbox, whether you are intentionally trying to do it or not. it's not hard to see

I'm talking about intentionally abusing it. It's not the best solution but it's clear enough when it's abused.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:The mechanic totally makes sense lol. If anything it's just a bit too efficient. Would be nice to have it boost the speed by maybe 25% instead of 50% or so, but that's impossible anyway

It's way more than 50% when you add the flip armies effect. If I flip cav they run 3x faster.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by n0el »

@[Armag] diarouga should stacking mutas be banned in bw? That is much more of an abusable bug and balanced breaking than pull trick
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:@[Armag] diarouga should stacking mutas be banned in bw? That is much more of an abusable bug and balanced breaking than pull trick

What's that?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

I don't think magic box muta in sc2 is even that much of an advantage. Every unit is clumped up anyway in that game. Also don't they get shitted by units with area of damage attack?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:I don't think magic box muta in sc2 is even that much of an advantage. Every unit is clumped up anyway in that game. Also don't they get shitted by units with area of damage attack?

Ah this. Well this was done on purpose. Furthermore, as garja points out, you can lose all your army to area damage.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by n0el »

If you group your Muta flock with a single overlord, they stack on top of each other and make it effectively impossible to target kill them. Without early game area damage units like sc2 has, this makes them infinitely stronger than without doing this.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:If you group your Muta flock with a single overlord, they stack on top of each other and make it effectively impossible to target kill them. Without early game area damage units like sc2 has, this makes them infinitely stronger than without doing this.

Then yes, it is an issue.
In Starcraft II, the bugs are fixed.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by n0el »

And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by tabben »

Just curious, is it Garjarouga against the world on this one?

Would anyone else in let's say top40 ep elo (to include aiz's opinion) prefer aoe3 with a unit pulling mechanic?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Honestly it is abused, that said it should be in the game but the speed in which they pull is a tad too much imho.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by gibson »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
n0el wrote:And yet it’s been considered a standard in the best RTS game in history for nearly 20 years. It’s considered part of the game and if it were to be changed by blizzard there would be a mutiny.

So what?

It’s part of the game.

alt d is part of the game too, so i guess its fine for everyone to use it all the time
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by SoldieR »

Dragging units into a formation without hitting a button is not the same as hitting keys that revive a dead unit. Your argument is not valid.

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