Pull" Trick" discussion

[Cometk]

@kami_ryu look at the video on the top of page 13

[Kaiserklein]

Honestly I understand garja's point. Basically he's saying the pull trick is OP, which is probably true to some extent. And nerfing the speed boost it grants would be reasonable imo. But we can't do that anyway, so I don't see the point of discussing it so much.

However, I can't understand people who want to remove it completely. Apparently they don't get that
1) It's technically impossible (which is enough of a reason on its own lol).

How do you know that? I'm quite sure that you haven't tried, and since this hasn't been discussed, even the devs probably haven't. It's true that at this moment we don't have a solution, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it.

2) Pull trick is a core mechanic so removing it would just break the game.

It depends on how you remove it, same point.

3) There's other mechanics anyway, like dragboxing pikes in front of RI or even making a line of huss rotate, that makes units run in the same way. Should we remove these as well?

Dragboxing pikes in front of RI is also very abusable, and I think that such a skilless mechanic shouldn't exist. Pull trick is a bigger issue though.

4) Using pull trick is not abusing a bug, it's abusing an intended mechanic (arguably an OP mechanic though). Alt-d is a bug.
It's still an abuse, and it doesn't make sense.

1) I know it can't be removed because eaglemut says so... And unlike you he know what he's talking about.
2) No matter how you removed it if you could, it would make aoe3 a different game. You spend your time crying about ep changinf the original game too much, yet you want to totally break the formations system. Great
3) Yeah so let's remove it too. And also you can't rotate your huss when they're in a line anymore cause it makes them speed up, and let's remove treasures and fix the crates and resources.
4) It's an abuse just like sitting with ranged units between trees or buildings is an (much more impactful btw) abuse. Or locking fire after unit goes out of range. Or deleting wall pillars.

You can also stop aoe3 and go play sc2 if you want a perfectly balanced and smooth game.

[Mitoe]

And also you can't rotate your huss when they're in a line anymore cause it makes them speed up, and let's remove treasures and fix the crates and resources.

Yeah I do this quite a bit to escape snare and it's just impossible if you remove pull. In fact, turning with cav (or any units) wouldn't work at all without pull: turning would just slow you down a lot.

[Garja]

I dont think anyone wants it completely gone, which is why the entire discussion is futile because even if the whole community agreed that when pull trick was abused it was OP and shouldnt be in the game there is nothing that could be done about it.

See diarouga's post

also Garja arguing to ban it from events

Well ye since people are shameless using it and there is no technical solution atm, that should be the consequence. Instead you won't ban it and then it will be Fre7ger/dutch fest again. Maybe iro for those who like to dare.

[Cometk]

fre ger and dutch will keep the exact same popularity. you can also pull with musk huss...

[n0el]

Show hidden quotes

I dont think anyone wants it completely gone, which is why the entire discussion is futile because even if the whole community agreed that when pull trick was abused it was OP and shouldnt be in the game there is nothing that could be done about it.

See diarouga's post

also Garja arguing to ban it from events

Well ye since people are shameless using it and there is no technical solution atm, that should be the consequence. Instead you won't ban it and then it will be Fre7ger/dutch fest again. Maybe iro for those who like to dare.

You make it sound like the only reason those civs are the top picks are because of pull trick

[Kaiserklein]

And also you can't rotate your huss when they're in a line anymore cause it makes them speed up, and let's remove treasures and fix the crates and resources.

Yeah I do this quite a bit to escape snare and it's just impossible if you remove pull. In fact, turning with cav (or any units) wouldn't work at all without pull: turning would just slow you down a lot.

Yea ofc, literally every good player does it, including diarouga I'm sure, haha.
It could work without pull and without slowing down, but then units wouldn't stay in a line...

[lordraphael]

hello plebs, this is such a futile discussion.
A) you cant compare it to alt D, alt D is a bug that intentionally gets triggered, pulling is a mechanic, which exists in EVERY Age game, and can be triggered frequently without intention. which means ===>
you cant ban it. I remember how i always wondered why sometimes units would speed, back before pull tirck was a thing, meaning i frequently encountered it and triggered it unitnetinonally, pretty sure everyone did.
B)you cant just remove it as it is a core mechanic of the game. Ive never been a big fan of formations in aoe 3 because imo they limit skill not promote it ( like 360 degrees units sourounds and similar stuff are virtually impossible because of formations,forming concaves is also kind of impossible) . Id all be for units to behave as they do in sc2 but this would require far better unit pathing than aoe3 has and ever will have. I have no idea of coding but i imagine even blizzard would have problems solving unit pathing for aoe 3.

What does this mean, for particularly stupid and stupid persons:

Better spend your time practising pulling units and improving because theres no chance of getting rid of it.
THat being said, it is a broken mechanic particualrly because of another mechaninc = snare.
For example in aoe 2 the same unit formation mechaninc applies, units behave just like in aoe3 with max speed when being out of formation, but its not nearly as impactful as it is in aoe 3 because units dont get snared. So if youre serious about shitting on the pull trick, youd have to remove the snare mechanic and rebalance cav units accordingly. The only feasible way to make pulling less broken.
Unfortunately this is also kind of impossible because aoe 3 was designed with snare as a core mechanic and rebalancing cav for fights without snare would be enormous effort.
just my 2 cents here3

[[Armag] diarouga]

Honestly I understand garja's point. Basically he's saying the pull trick is OP, which is probably true to some extent. And nerfing the speed boost it grants would be reasonable imo. But we can't do that anyway, so I don't see the point of discussing it so much.

However, I can't understand people who want to remove it completely. Apparently they don't get that
1) It's technically impossible (which is enough of a reason on its own lol).

How do you know that? I'm quite sure that you haven't tried, and since this hasn't been discussed, even the devs probably haven't. It's true that at this moment we don't have a solution, but that doesn't mean that we can't discuss it.

2) Pull trick is a core mechanic so removing it would just break the game.

It depends on how you remove it, same point.

3) There's other mechanics anyway, like dragboxing pikes in front of RI or even making a line of huss rotate, that makes units run in the same way. Should we remove these as well?

Dragboxing pikes in front of RI is also very abusable, and I think that such a skilless mechanic shouldn't exist. Pull trick is a bigger issue though.

4) Using pull trick is not abusing a bug, it's abusing an intended mechanic (arguably an OP mechanic though). Alt-d is a bug.
It's still an abuse, and it doesn't make sense.

1) I know it can't be removed because eaglemut says so... And unlike you he know what he's talking about.

Well, I don't know how much time eaglemut spent on the matter. Also, while he knows a lot about aoe3 he doesn't know everything. Some days ago, Umeu (who isn't a dev) explained to buckethead how you can identify QS games.

2) No matter how you removed it if you could, it would make aoe3 a different game. You spend your time crying about ep changinf the original game too much, yet you want to totally break the formations system. Great
It depends on how you change it. Totally removing the formations isn't an option, but removing the pull trick doesn't change that much (like video 1 is acceptable). Furthermore, Garja suggested to ban it from tournaments, ie don't let people do it on purpose. Again, the discussion is irrelevant as it is not going to happen but it's definitely something one could do.
3) Yeah so let's remove it too. And also you can't rotate your huss when they're in a line anymore cause it makes them speed up, and let's remove treasures and fix the crates and resources.
Rotating the huss isn't an issue lol. You can't abuse that at all, and most of the time it is an issue when you try to escape (because you can get caught because of that). I don't see what treasures and fixed crates/resources have to do in that? The issue with these things is that they're random, the issue with pull trick is that it's a mechanic you can abuse.
4) It's an abuse just like sitting with ranged units between trees or buildings is an (much more impactful btw) abuse. Or locking fire after unit goes out of range. Or deleting wall pillars.

Sitting with ranged units between trees and buildings isn't an abuse lol, I don't even need to explain why.
Locking fire is also an abuse but nobody complained about that so far, so I guess it's ok. Deleting wall pilars is probably an abuse too (although I'm not sure), but it's barely relevant and accepted among top players.
The issue with pull trick is that it's stupid. Your units shouldn't be able to move faster because you abuse a mechanic.

You can also stop aoe3 and go play sc2 if you want a perfectly balanced and smooth game.
I don't see why you bring balance in the discussion. It's pretty obvious that pull trick isn't a really a balance issue (although it does affect the balance), but it's a dumb abusable mechanic.

[[Armag] diarouga]

hello plebs, this is such a futile discussion.
A) you cant compare it to alt D, alt D is a bug that intentionally gets triggered, pulling is a mechanic, which exists in EVERY Age game, and can be triggered frequently without intention. which means ===>
you cant ban it. I remember how i always wondered why sometimes units would speed, back before pull tirck was a thing, meaning i frequently encountered it and triggered it unitnetinonally, pretty sure everyone did.
B)you cant just remove it as it is a core mechanic of the game. Ive never been a big fan of formations in aoe 3 because imo they limit skill not promote it ( like 360 degrees units sourounds and similar stuff are virtually impossible because of formations,forming concaves is also kind of impossible) . Id all be for units to behave as they do in sc2 but this would require far better unit pathing than aoe3 has and ever will have. I have no idea of coding but i imagine even blizzard would have problems solving unit pathing for aoe 3.

What does this mean, for particularly stupid and stupid persons:

Better spend your time practising pulling units and improving because theres no chance of getting rid of it.
THat being said, it is a broken mechanic particualrly because of another mechaninc = snare.
For example in aoe 2 the same unit formation mechaninc applies, units behave just like in aoe3 with max speed when being out of formation, but its not nearly as impactful as it is in aoe 3 because units dont get snared. So if youre serious about shitting on the pull trick, youd have to remove the snare mechanic and rebalance cav units accordingly. The only feasible way to make pulling less broken.
Unfortunately this is also kind of impossible because aoe 3 was designed with snare as a core mechanic and rebalancing cav for fights without snare would be enormous effort.
just my 2 cents here3

You don't have to claim that the people who disagree with you are stupid lol.
Also I said it multiple times : I know that this is not going to be changed (not only because of technical reasons but also because the people who could potentially do that don't want it). I'm just trying to explain why this is dumb.

I agree with your point though, if aoc works the same way (I actually haven't noticed it) it isn't an issue because snare doesn't exist. It's just so frustrating when your opponent can escape and kill half of your cav before you reach hand combat thanks to the pull trick.

[lordraphael]

hello plebs, this is such a futile discussion.
A) you cant compare it to alt D, alt D is a bug that intentionally gets triggered, pulling is a mechanic, which exists in EVERY Age game, and can be triggered frequently without intention. which means ===>
you cant ban it. I remember how i always wondered why sometimes units would speed, back before pull tirck was a thing, meaning i frequently encountered it and triggered it unitnetinonally, pretty sure everyone did.
B)you cant just remove it as it is a core mechanic of the game. Ive never been a big fan of formations in aoe 3 because imo they limit skill not promote it ( like 360 degrees units sourounds and similar stuff are virtually impossible because of formations,forming concaves is also kind of impossible) . Id all be for units to behave as they do in sc2 but this would require far better unit pathing than aoe3 has and ever will have. I have no idea of coding but i imagine even blizzard would have problems solving unit pathing for aoe 3.

What does this mean, for particularly stupid and stupid persons:

Better spend your time practising pulling units and improving because theres no chance of getting rid of it.
THat being said, it is a broken mechanic particualrly because of another mechaninc = snare.
For example in aoe 2 the same unit formation mechaninc applies, units behave just like in aoe3 with max speed when being out of formation, but its not nearly as impactful as it is in aoe 3 because units dont get snared. So if youre serious about shitting on the pull trick, youd have to remove the snare mechanic and rebalance cav units accordingly. The only feasible way to make pulling less broken.
Unfortunately this is also kind of impossible because aoe 3 was designed with snare as a core mechanic and rebalancing cav for fights without snare would be enormous effort.
just my 2 cents here3

You don't have to claim that the people who disagree with you are stupid lol.
Also I said it multiple times : I know that this is not going to be changed (not only because of technical reasons but also because the people who could potentially do that don't want it). I'm just trying to explain why this is dumb.

I agree with your point though, if aoc works the same way (I actually haven't noticed it) it isn't an issue because snare doesn't exist. It's just so frustrating when your opponent can escape and kill half of your cav before you reach hand combat thanks to the pull trick.

well its stupid becuase you cant change it. FOr example i like complaining about walls and water, which is legit because it can be changed. it doesnt have to be abusable and broken.
Even your talk about alt- D is more valid than talkign about pull, because the community can decide whether it should be allwoed to use intentionally or shouldnt be allowed, sth which doesnt apply to pull mechanic .
If you want it to be recognized as an abused game mechanic, ill give you that, its an abused mechanic and it does take skill to a certain degree, but i would agree that overall its not the best for the game ( probably because the impact is to big ).

[[Armag] diarouga]

If you want it to be recognized as an abused game mechanic, ill give you that, its an abused mechanic and it does take skill to a certain degree, but i would agree that overall its not the best for the game ( probably because the impact is to big ).

Well, that's all I want.

[lordraphael]

If you want it to be recognized as an abused game mechanic, ill give you that, its an abused mechanic and it does take skill to a certain degree, but i would agree that overall its not the best for the game ( probably because the impact is to big ).

Well, that's all I want.

so what? people will still use it and you cant do shit about it.

[Hazza54321]

oh rapha its so good to see you <3

[Mitoe]

If the impact is too big then how come we never seem to see it have a game-winning impact in any games? I think I've only seen 2 or 3 games where it really was enough to win the game.

I see it used mostly to prevent a loss in the early game and sometimes to save a handful of units but other than that it seems like its uses are a lot more limited than everyone here wants to admit.

[Garja]

Better spend your time practising pulling units and improving because theres no chance of getting rid of it.

Ye no shit. Maybe this is exactly what I'm trying to avoid at all cost?

[Hazza54321]

If the impact is too big then how come we never seem to see it have a game-winning impact in any games? I think I've only seen 2 or 3 games where it really was enough to win the game.

I see it used mostly to prevent a loss in the early game and sometimes to save a handful of units but other than that it seems like its uses are a lot more limited than everyone here wants to admit.

i mean u can cover up mistakes with it easily like out of position skirms and herding vills for instance, which can influence the outcome of the game for sure, the amount of times ive seen kaiser or myself pull trick vills on outer edges of your base which should really not be the case is so impactful

[Mitoe]

Sure, but whether or not that has a negative impact on the game is very debatable.

[Garja]

How is it debatable? It overshadows lot of over aspects of the game:
- it makes hand cav strictly worse than supposed;
- it makes positioning (anticipation and correct distance between army groups) less important;
- it creates laughable slingshot unit movements.
- it makes harder to kill vills, which might not be bad vs cav (raid are quite good in this game) but it is bad when it's ranged units trying to kill vills. In the current meta where there are already very few reasons to go across the map with your army.

[Mitoe]

At least you have something to do instead of just watch them die. It's not like you're being rewarded for being out of position, you just have the option to salvage what you can. You will mostly likely still lose a few units, but maybe not all of them. This is totally fine IMO.

It really doesn't make hand cav any worse. I've said this before but you cannot escape snare from cavalry. The individual units being snared will still die, but the rest of the formation will escape. The reason this doesn't make cavalry any worse is because you have to be pulling those skirms with something--and that something is most likely your anti-cav. And if your dragoons are busy pulling your skirms then you're not going to be doing any counter damage to the cavalry as they clean up those few skirms that did get snared, which is arguably worse than just walking up and shooting and trading off those units. It might be worth it if your positioning was absolutely awful, but you're still not getting out of there for free.

I think it's mostly fine vs raids as well. If a vill gets snared you cannot pull it, instead all of the other vills in the formation slow down. Sure you can avoid getting 1 or 2 vills snared by pulling early enough, but it's really not a super big deal IMO.



I can't believe I'm even engaging in this discussion again. This is literally just the first 8 pages on repeat right now. Just go re-read everything and we'll have this exact same conversation without resolution, and then we can move on with our lives.

[Garja]

At least you have something to do instead of just watch them die. It's not like you're being rewarded for being out of position, you just have the option to salvage what you can. You will mostly likely still lose a few units, but maybe not all of them. This is totally fine IMO.

It really doesn't make hand cav any worse. I've said this before but you cannot escape snare from cavalry. The individual units being snared will still die, but the rest of the formation will escape. The reason this doesn't make cavalry any worse is because you have to be pulling those skirms with something--and that something is most likely your anti-cav. And if your dragoons are busy pulling your skirms then you're not going to be doing any counter damage to the cavalry as they clean up those few skirms that did get snared, which is arguably worse than just walking up and shooting and trading off those units. It might be worth it if your positioning was absolutely awful, but you're still not getting out of there for free.

I think it's mostly fine vs raids as well. If a vill gets snared you cannot pull it, instead all of the other vills in the formation slow down. Sure you can avoid getting 1 or 2 vills snared by pulling early enough, but it's really not a super big deal IMO.



I can't believe I'm even engaging in this discussion again. This is literally just the first 8 pages on repeat right now. Just go re-read everything and we'll have this exact same conversation without resolution, and then we can move on with our lives.

In fact you're getting punished for being out of position and the opponent is getting rewarded for being in position.
" The individual units being snared will still die, but the rest of the formation will escape." Yes, while normally you would lose more than just the units directly snared.
It's fine vs raids. It's not fine if you have a bunch of exposed vills and they run away from ranged units.

[Goodspeed]

You can also stop aoe3 and go play sc2 if you want a perfectly balanced and smooth game.

Don't say this in front of terran players. Someone cover diarouga's eyes, quick!

[Goodspeed]

If the impact is too big then how come we never seem to see it have a game-winning impact in any games? I think I've only seen 2 or 3 games where it really was enough to win the game.

I see it used mostly to prevent a loss in the early game...

To be fair, if it prevented an early loss in a game that you later end up winning, that means it did win the game.

[[Armag] diarouga]

You can also stop aoe3 and go play sc2 if you want a perfectly balanced and smooth game.

Don't say this in front of terran players. Someone cover diarouga's eyes, quick!

IEM Katowice???
12 players, 3 races, ONLY ONE TERRAN??? BALANCE??? LOGIC???
Quarter finals, no terran at all? What the fuck is blizzard doing?

[[Armag] diarouga]

If the impact is too big then how come we never seem to see it have a game-winning impact in any games? I think I've only seen 2 or 3 games where it really was enough to win the game.

I see it used mostly to prevent a loss in the early game...

To be fair, if it prevented an early loss in a game that you later end up winning, that means it did win the game.

Yea, that's the point. It allows you to save games you should lose because you're out of position, I wouldn't call that a skill lol.