Pull" Trick" discussion

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United States of America Cometk
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

Garja wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Ive never failed at it once

Try with 13 Huss and 30 skirms, better yet abusing that to the maximum in a real game.

edit: i actually got up and out of bed to playtest that

why in hell should it even be a thing to pull skirms with huss

well i mean dopps can pull uhlans, uhlans can pull dopps :lol:
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

You can pull 30 skirms with 13 huss. It's just really hard to do
Pulling back your huss from a bad fight is a thing to
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Cometk wrote:
Garja wrote:
Show hidden quotes

why in hell should it even be a thing to pull skirms with huss

well i mean dopps can pull uhlans, uhlans can pull dopps :lol:
A good old fashioned circlejerk
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Cometk wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Ive never failed at it once

Try with 13 Huss and 30 skirms, better yet abusing that to the maximum in a real game.

edit: i actually got up and out of bed to playtest that


Ive pulled skirs with less goons. Are huss any different? Anyway i dont really care much about army pulling. It just annoys me to no end in age1.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by _H2O »

Or what about the simple stuff like bow pike cross over :). That too is formation logic at play.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Imperial Noob »

Cometk wrote:pull trick is an implicit motion that will be activated unintentionally in every single game though - itā€™s completely organic. you might never discover the machinegun hero glitch even after playing thousands of online games. theyā€™re really not comparable

How does this glitch work?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

Imperial Noob wrote:
Cometk wrote:pull trick is an implicit motion that will be activated unintentionally in every single game though - itā€™s completely organic. you might never discover the machinegun hero glitch even after playing thousands of online games. theyā€™re really not comparable

How does this glitch work?

It's not a glitch.

Edit: Tabben's right, you're probably referring to crackshot cancelling, my bad
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by tabben »

Mitoe wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:
Cometk wrote:pull trick is an implicit motion that will be activated unintentionally in every single game though - itā€™s completely organic. you might never discover the machinegun hero glitch even after playing thousands of online games. theyā€™re really not comparable

How does this glitch work?

It's not a glitch.

surely he means the machinegun hero thing? which has to count as a glitch
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

_H2O wrote:Or what about the simple stuff like bow pike cross over :). That too is formation logic at play.

Again, that's just manipulating formations. The pull trick is explicitly kiting pulled by faster units. It's a speed trick.
We need some sort of fix not because the mechanic itself but because of the abuse which is retard level.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

Garja wrote:
_H2O wrote:Or what about the simple stuff like bow pike cross over :). That too is formation logic at play.

Again, that's just manipulating formations. The pull trick is explicitly kiting pulled by faster units. It's a speed trick.
We need some sort of fix not because the mechanic itself but because of the abuse which is retard level.

They still sprint through the formation using the same mechanic as pull.

I don't think we need a fix.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

Garja wrote:
_H2O wrote:Or what about the simple stuff like bow pike cross over :). That too is formation logic at play.

Again, that's just manipulating formations. The pull trick is explicitly kiting pulled by faster units. It's a speed trick.
We need some sort of fix not because the mechanic itself but because of the abuse which is retard level.

your units "pulling" the other units into a sprint don't actually have to be faster. you can use 3 speed solingen steel dopps to pull 8 speed comanche riders if you wanted, as long as you have the right numbers.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

ye still the trick is when you use faster units, else it wouldnt be a trick just a regroup as devs intended
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by _H2O »

Just realized another reason why I donā€™t like the developer intention argument and had to drop this Wikipedia link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Dolan »

Did Ensemble devs ever argue that players should never use the pull trick beyond what was intended?

Because I'm not aware that Garja was an Ensemble dev. I think that'd be the only instance that would qualify as argument from authority, aka "believe us, because we made it" (even though we don't have any argument besides appeal to authority). Not "believe me, because they made it so". Then it's just Garja's opinion on what the devs intended, not an argument from authority.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

_H2O wrote:Just realized another reason why I donā€™t like the developer intention argument and had to drop this Wikipedia link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Dev intention is what made the game as we know it. But regardless, that's rly not what I mean. Simply put, manipulating formations is cool, pull tricking is lame. It just appear devs had something cool and useful in mind while players are abusing it and making it lame. Feel free to disagree but when skirms just speed sling 2 screens and break the snare it is objectively retarded.
If the discussion was truly as trivial as dev intention etc. then crackshot trick would be just as legit.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

To be fair, the individual units that do end up getting snared can't be pulled fast enough to escape from any of the units that could be snaring them (such as cavalry) at that stage of the game.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by gibson »

_H2O wrote:Just realized another reason why I donā€™t like the developer intention argument and had to drop this Wikipedia link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
The reason that argument is used here is because thats an argument often used in the alt d argument
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by _H2O »

Alt d is just shitty for the game and obviously so. We should add one button where you can also revive your cav that dies and then pretend thatā€™s a good idea.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by n0el »

The pull trick is the same as alt-d discussion is one of the stupidest things i've ever heard. they aren't even comparable.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Ive pulled tricked to steal food treasures, save herding vills and to kite way more easily in pretty much everygame and it feels stupid everytime. Also teleported my hero across the map pulling him with the nat scout age 1. Kaiser pull tricked 5 fucking cannons. Mitoe pulled tricked to steal cdb treasures. pretty sure that sort of shit is more impactful than alt d.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

See I have a problem with the "pretty much every game" thing. Surely we would see it more often then? :hmm:

The simple truth is that most of the time your composition doesn't allow for you to kite "way more easily" using the pull trick; the option to pull is there still with a lot of compositions, but the execution is not easy.

If you're really all that upset about pull trick in age 1, we could change native scouts/envoys/etc. to behave like treasure guardians (ignore formations), but meh. Don't really like this personally.


About Kaiser pulling cannons... come on, lol. Tabben went for the laziest possible composition in that game--ofc he's not going to be able to catch cannons + fusiliers. Most of the time pulling your cannons is honestly not very relevant since they're usually in bombard mode anyway.


Edit: Besides @Hazza54321, aren't you one of the players who complains the most about how the game all comes down to one big fight and sometimes nothing else seems to matter? Surely having more ways to disengage from fights or otherwise outplay your opponent can only be a good thing in this aspect.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by dansil92 »

Ive pulled arrow knights with eagle runners and stealth jaguars with puma, theres some real aplications for aztec especially. Sioux can pull their infantry which can make cetan a bit less useless....

The thing with the pull trick is, in my mind, it sort of simulates the effect of morale on the units and is a way for a player to take advantage of a bit more apm to increase mobility of slower units which isnt all bad in a game where there arent a lot of apm sinks or ways to abuse higher skill levels... Idk ive never seen it as a huge deal where ive seen it used and its maybe frustrating to think you've snared some skirms and lose them but its equally rewarding to save your skirm mass... so isnt that a good thing?
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by iCourt »

Developer intent is a murky argument to go by. Unfortunately it will always be a grey area on what needs to be changed or fixed, or what should be left as is.

Let's look at something I "fixed" as an example. Iroquois Tomahawks since TWC have thrown "bullets." This wasn't a mistake, they had Native Tomahawks in Vanilla throwing "axes" and the newly introduced Huron Mantlets had "axes" as well.

ES developers decided this was how the unit SHOULD be designed. This was intentional, and as proof they never changed or fixed it despite multiple patches and an expansion. I changed this for aesthetic purposes, and aesthetic purposes only. I "fixed" something that I felt the developers missed the mark on, and I have no regrets doing so.

So what is my point? Well, I'm mudding the waters. Fixing or not fixing anything has positives and negatives in almost every case. Developer intent can be an argument. It might even be the best argument not to change something. However, designer intent can also be argued to negatively impact the game.

I've always patched things based on a pretty weak argument, but one I've found works best, which is "does changing this feel right?" You'll find a ton more grey area asking yourself that question.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

_H2O wrote:Alt d is just shitty for the game and obviously so. We should add one button where you can also revive your cav that dies and then pretend thatā€™s a good idea.


Its shitty for the game cuz it denies the purpose of an existing core mechanic, and makes it pointless to try and kill enemy explorers. In age1 the pull trick actually has the exact same effect, it denies snare and thus actually makes it pointless to chase down the enemy scout. Not to mention that it can be used to steal treasures you wouldn't otherwise get, which is comparable to machinegun crackshot. I think the comparison with both exploits is very much warranted. The argument of whats good for the game and what isnt is very much subjective and any claim to objectivity derives from authority, an argument you said to dislike.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:To be fair, the individual units that do end up getting snared can't be pulled fast enough to escape from any of the units that could be snaring them (such as cavalry) at that stage of the game.


Not true. Perhaps when you talk about cav snaring infantry, thats correct. But not when you talk about cav snaring/pulling cav or infantry snaring/pulling inf. Cav being snared by inf can also be pulled into safety.

Also, ypu can pull away before getting snared.

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