Pull" Trick" discussion

[Mitoe]

That's true, but pulling cavalry with infantry is only for a short distance, and you sacrifice the damage of your ranged infantry to do it as well.

[n0el]

Alt d is just shitty for the game and obviously so. We should add one button where you can also revive your cav that dies and then pretend that’s a good idea.

Its shitty for the game cuz it denies the purpose of an existing core mechanic, and makes it pointless to try and kill enemy explorers. In age1 the pull trick actually has the exact same effect, it denies snare and thus actually makes it pointless to chase down the enemy scout. Not to mention that it can be used to steal treasures you wouldn't otherwise get, which is comparable to machinegun crackshot. I think the comparison with both exploits is very much warranted. The argument of whats good for the game and what isnt is very much subjective and any claim to objectivity derives from authority, an argument you said to dislike.

Using that logic then melee timing to break a snare and losing your hero intentionally to gaia are also the same. It’s just not.

[HUMMAN]

Well i thinks its good falcs get buffed by pull trick since they are relatively unpopular. And its quite exciting to see these moves. However for other classes, as mentioned, melee units are disfavored by pull trick which were already weak. I agree it's a cool mechanic and makes game more interesting, but it may need some balance stuff. Maybe drop max speed(pull speed) to regular speed while being snared. From agressor's point i cant see how pull trick can give an advantage while it helps to escape.

[supahons]

mandatory: pulltrick - part of the core game mechanic (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 25#p349731). Read this then propose balance changes.

optional: You don't have to use it.
alt+d, crackshot-trick

[Kaiserklein]

Well i thinks its good falcs get buffed by pull trick since they are relatively unpopular. And its quite exciting to see these moves. However for other classes, as mentioned, melee units are disfavored by pull trick which were already weak. I agree it's a cool mechanic and makes game more interesting, but it may need some balance stuff. Maybe drop max speed(pull speed) to regular speed while being snared.

We can't change the mechanic. It's simply not possible, according to eaglemut.
I personally believe the pull trick is too powerful and should be nerfed a bit, but since we can't do it, this debate is getting really stale.

From agressor's point i cant see how pull trick can give an advantage while it helps to escape.

You can pull slower units accross the map for example. You can also, in a fight, pull your melee units so that they run forward faster and get on top of your opponent's stuff. Plus pull trick allows you to be more aggressive with your ranged units (typically skirms) because you can quickly pull them back in case you feel like you're gonna overcommit. So yeah, it also helps the aggressor a lot.

[Garja]

Using that logic then melee timing to break a snare and losing your hero intentionally to gaia are also the same. It’s just not.

No at all the same logic.

[deleted_user0]

Alt d is just shitty for the game and obviously so. We should add one button where you can also revive your cav that dies and then pretend that’s a good idea.

Its shitty for the game cuz it denies the purpose of an existing core mechanic, and makes it pointless to try and kill enemy explorers. In age1 the pull trick actually has the exact same effect, it denies snare and thus actually makes it pointless to chase down the enemy scout. Not to mention that it can be used to steal treasures you wouldn't otherwise get, which is comparable to machinegun crackshot. I think the comparison with both exploits is very much warranted. The argument of whats good for the game and what isnt is very much subjective and any claim to objectivity derives from authority, an argument you said to dislike.

Using that logic then melee timing to break a snare and losing your hero intentionally to gaia are also the same. It’s just not.

No, countersnaring is totally fine. Shooting a tres to lose it to gaia could potentially be filed in there, but its not really the same. It's more akin to deleting agra to avoid aztec getting 3x bonus

[Garja]

Dying to gaia is part of the game, completely intended and consistent with explorer ransom. It's only a 2nd worse option anyway so it's fine.

[macacoalbino]

Ive pulled tricked to steal food treasures, save herding vills and to kite way more easily in pretty much everygame and it feels stupid everytime. Also teleported my hero across the map pulling him with the nat scout age 1. Kaiser pull tricked 5 fucking cannons. Mitoe pulled tricked to steal cdb treasures. pretty sure that sort of shit is more impactful than alt d.

I read a long time ago, so I'm not so sure about this. I think the skirm speed from nilla was nerfed exactly because it was a bit too easy for you to kite musketeer type units with them. Now we found a way to overcome the nerf. So here's another consideration as to why the mechanic is op.

[rsy]

Dying to gaia is part of the game, completely intended and consistent with explorer ransom. It's only a 2nd worse option anyway so it's fine.

Lmao the first time I read this I read garja in place of gaia. And u know what it would still have made almost perfect sense

[Vinyanyérë]

Pull trick is an unintended consequence of design. Alt-d is an unintended consequence of implementation. That makes the differences between them not just a question of their quantitative effects on how the game plays out; they're qualitatively different.

There's no way to remove pull trick without a Repeal and Replace - it's a consequence of seemingly reasonable design decisions about how units selected together should move. Removing pull trick means reworking how units move.

Alt-d is easy to Repeal without Replacing. It’s a transition from "you can do this" to "you can’t do this", but "you can’t do this" doesn't raise any new questions about how other things might work.

I know less about the crackshot trick but I suspect it's in the same category as alt-d.

[_H2O]

Yeah this is why you have to make a judgement call in a sense on what is good for the game. It’s very difficult to make these calls.

Also the idea of intended mechanics to increase APM and micro feels very empty to me. I feel like sc2 is a prime example of this. Every apm based mechanic feels too intentionally designed. It takes much of the art out of things. There is something beautiful about an unintended mechanic evolving organically that I can’t describe properly. The pull trick is one of those.

[Goodspeed]

People don't seem to agree on whether it's good or bad for the game. Should probably table it until it gets used more and the impact on the meta becomes apparent. That might sway the collective community one way or another.

[GiBthedurrty]

pull trick xD

[fightinfrenchman]

Alt-d is easy to Repeal without Replacing.

Is Alt+d removed from the patch?

[EAGLEMUT]

The alt-d glitch is fixed on current EP 6.1 Beta.

[fightinfrenchman]

Hmm not a fan of that

[deleted_user]

Aoe just became one dimensional

[somp]

Yeah, I don't see why "caravel range abuse" is any more unfair than 9 speed falconets

[Kaiserklein]

I was basically just pointing out that you can retask your caravel when this obvious bug happens. That sounds fair to me.

Comparing this to pull trick is ridiculous since it's literally just the way the game handles formations. Everyone pull tricks, whether it's intended or not. Yeah you can argue that it's akward design, or that it's OP, etc, but you can't compare it to that bug since it's not a bug. Especially as the bug happens randomly and requires no action, while pull trick is a consistent mechanic that requires extra apm.


I'm not really gonna answer to anything else because we've had this argument 100 times already and it's pointless. It's technically impossible to change the way this works anyway.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I was basically just pointing out that you can retask your caravel when this obvious bug happens. That sounds fair to me.

Comparing this to pull trick is ridiculous since it's literally just the way the game handles formations. Everyone pull tricks, whether it's intended or not. Yeah you can argue that it's akward design, or that it's OP, etc, but you can't compare it to that bug since it's not a bug. Especially as the bug happens randomly and requires no action, while pull trick is a consistent mechanic that requires extra apm.

If you just pull trick your army by dragboxing it, ye it's just the game design. However, nowadays people keep 55% of their army behind so that they can pull trick their army. You could also say that people could just not do that when the bug happens.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah gl drawing a line between intentional and accidental pull tricking. You know yourself this isn't realistic...
Also no one keeps 55% of their armies behind, that's a tale.

[EAGLEMUT]

Well, one is a bug while the other is not a bug. I think that's quite clear.
That said, I don't think any action (ruling) should/can be taken against either. It often just happens unintentionally.
Asking players to stop attacking with caravel doesn't sound enforceable in practice - the player could just be looking elsewhere and not see it, anyone can argue that.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah gl drawing a line between intentional and accidental pull tricking. You know yourself this isn't realistic...
Also no one keeps 55% of their armies behind, that's a tale.

You can't draw a line between intentional and accidental pull tricking, that's the problem. But to be fair, you can't really ban the range abuse. The player can always say that he wasn't looking or didn't have the APM to cancel it.

[Kaiserklein]

I'm not saying it should be banned lol. It should be fixed though (if possible).
I'm just saying if you notice it, cancelling it is just fair. In that clip breeze obviously noticed it and enjoyed it.