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Tuvalu gibson
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07 Nov 2018, 21:23

Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic. Everyone just keeps on saying " it involves skills so it's okay blah blah blah" and ignoring the repercussions of 6 speed cannons.
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Austria supahons
Dragoon
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07 Nov 2018, 21:31

gibson wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic. Everyone just keeps on saying " it involves skills so it's okay blah blah blah" and ignoring the repercussions of 6 speed cannons.


ashvin wrote:But as told many times in this thread, the max velocity field in the proto files is made for this purpose only, which should clear that this feature is a planned one. Intended feature and a legal move in the game.


example from the protoy file - it was the the devs intention to add it:

<Unit id ='312' name ='Skirmisher'>
<MaxVelocity>4.0000</MaxVelocity>
<MaxRunVelocity>6.0000</MaxRunVelocity>

<Unit id ='795' name ='xpPropFalconet'>
<MaxVelocity>4.0000</MaxVelocity>
<MaxRunVelocity>6.0000</MaxRunVelocity>

if you change the file you get an crc-error - so it will become standard gameplay on RE sooner or later
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
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07 Nov 2018, 21:44

Feels like I'm beating a dead horse here. Yes the game allows units to move faster to let them catch up and formation properly with the units they are grouped with. That is intended. What is obviously not intended is for someone to be able to get 6 speed falcs whenever they have some cav in the the same screen as their falcs.
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Tuvalu gibson
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07 Nov 2018, 21:45

Somali agrees with with me and that's the most important :)
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Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
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07 Nov 2018, 21:46

Gibson big noob
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Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
ESO: Jerom_

07 Nov 2018, 22:03

The fact that a maximum velocity was coded doesnt mean it was intended to be used like this. Imo its still a glitch, as Id expect it is unintended behaviour to actually have units move much faster than coded.
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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07 Nov 2018, 22:07

@gibson I think if you consider abusing this game mechanic to become glitching the game from a certain point, it would be quite hard to define where that point is. Do you consider Kaiser just dragboxing his falcs and fusiliers away to be glitching the game? What if he had a third, largest group and dragboxed it as well after that? What if he dragboxed away and then dragboxed back in 360 (to get falcs in the back)? Is this glitching the game or just using unit formations the way they are intended to work?
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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07 Nov 2018, 22:12

momuuu wrote:The fact that a maximum velocity was coded doesnt mean it was intended to be used like this. Imo its still a glitch, as Id expect it is unintended behaviour to actually have units move much faster than coded.

I'm confused, you seem to both acknowledge and un-acknowledge that these values were coded by ES and units never move faster than they were specifically coded to.
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momuuu wrote:theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
Netherlands momuuu
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07 Nov 2018, 22:19

EAGLEMUT wrote:
momuuu wrote:The fact that a maximum velocity was coded doesnt mean it was intended to be used like this. Imo its still a glitch, as Id expect it is unintended behaviour to actually have units move much faster than coded.

I'm confused, you seem to both acknowledge and un-acknowledge that these values were coded by ES and units never move faster than they were specifically coded to.

Ultimately anything that happens in the game is the result of how the game was coded. A bug/glitch would be an unintended consequence of how it was coded. You could say that the abuse if the code that lets unit keep formation is unintended behaviour. Although to definitively know if it is, one has to interview the developers. Pulling up the code responsible for the behaviour doesnt really conclude anything though..
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Tuvalu gibson
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07 Nov 2018, 22:23

EAGLEMUT wrote:@gibson I think if you consider abusing this game mechanic to become glitching the game from a certain point, it would be quite hard to define where that point is. Do you consider Kaiser just dragboxing his falcs and fusiliers away to be glitching the game? What if he had a third, largest group and dragboxed it as well after that? What if he dragboxed away and then dragboxed back in 360 (to get falcs in the back)? Is this glitching the game or just using unit formations the way they are intended to work?
If you define glitch as manipulating units to behave in a way they are not intended to behave in than yes I consider it glitching
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France bwinner
Howdah
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07 Nov 2018, 22:44

If the only problem for you is that pull trick is not intended by developers, why do you accept that we kite tresure guardians when they bug instead of reseting correctly @gibson ? This is much more sure that it's not intended and I never saw you (or anyone) complain about that. Same for using TC to teleport setler or dodge shot with cdb
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Netherlands edeholland
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07 Nov 2018, 22:47

Isn't that the reason we have EP? To fix some of the afwul decisions the devs made?
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
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07 Nov 2018, 22:47

gibson wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:@gibson I think if you consider abusing this game mechanic to become glitching the game from a certain point, it would be quite hard to define where that point is. Do you consider Kaiser just dragboxing his falcs and fusiliers away to be glitching the game? What if he had a third, largest group and dragboxed it as well after that? What if he dragboxed away and then dragboxed back in 360 (to get falcs in the back)? Is this glitching the game or just using unit formations the way they are intended to work?
If you define glitch as manipulating units to behave in a way they are not intended to behave in than yes I consider it glitching

So you consider all of the above scenarios glitching? If dragboxing groups of units even once is glitching the game, then this is basically a call to remove formations from the game and go back to AoE1 pathing.
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momuuu wrote:theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
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Switzerland ChewSick
Skirmisher
Posts: 159
ESO: chusik
Location: Switzerland

07 Nov 2018, 22:52

gibson wrote:Feels like I'm beating a dead horse here. Yes the game allows units to move faster to let them catch up and formation properly with the units they are grouped with. That is intended. What is obviously not intended is for someone to be able to get 6 speed falcs whenever they have some cav in the the same screen as their falcs.

i agree
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Great Britain boyu
Crossbow
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Location: Edinburgh, UK

07 Nov 2018, 22:53

Funny how the pull trick is more controversial than the fact you can literally dodge culv shots with your falcs lol. I can see Gibson's point that the mechanic is really powerful, but having the opportunity to put your falcs in limber mode and retreat at 6 speed from a fight before they get sniped anyway is quite a niche scenario.
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1706

07 Nov 2018, 22:53

gibson wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic.


Lot's of RTS classics like starcraft have had many unitended effects become well liked features, e.g muta stacking, lurker hold, bypassing supply etc

That's even if we could agree it is unintended. I don't see "unitended mechanic" as an argument that carries much, if any, weight.
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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07 Nov 2018, 23:01

Ye it's jsut hard to draw the line so it can't be enforced as exploit behavior. From a design point tho the pull trick does feel wrong in many cases.
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Tuvalu gibson
Gendarme
Posts: 8856
Location: USA

07 Nov 2018, 23:03

WickedCossack wrote:
gibson wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic.


Lot's of RTS classics like starcraft have had many unitended effects become well liked features, e.g muta stacking, lurker hold, bypassing supply etc

That's even if we could agree it is unintended. I don't see "unitended mechanic" as an argument that carries much, if any, weight.
So what would you consider alt d than? It's coded in the game that if you change your explorers formation when he's dead, he will revive with 0 Los. This is also an unintended mechanic that many consider to be cheating. Is there anything that separates this from 6 speed canons besides that 6 speed canons "takes more skill"?
Netherlands blackwidow
Dragoon
Posts: 385
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07 Nov 2018, 23:04

gibson wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic. Everyone just keeps on saying " it involves skills so it's okay blah blah blah" and ignoring the repercussions of 6 speed cannons.


Imo its very much the other way around. It is relevant, it being unintended is irrelevant. unintended effects can be positive, i dont see anything wrong with another skill dimension in this game.

To answer the ALT-D thing, thats just game breaking, easy to draw the line there. as soon OP strategies can be made around anything it should be fixed (i think this was the case with certain alt-d abuse? if it wasn't then imo just keep alt-d until someone breaks the game with it ).
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
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07 Nov 2018, 23:04

WickedCossack wrote:
gibson wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic.


Lot's of RTS classics like starcraft have had many unitended effects become well liked features, e.g muta stacking, lurker hold, bypassing supply etc

That's even if we could agree it is unintended. I don't see "unitended mechanic" as an argument that carries much, if any, weight.

Exactly, and this is why the explorer crackshot trick and alt-d shouldn't mindlessly be called glitch abuse.
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Switzerland ChewSick
Skirmisher
Posts: 159
ESO: chusik
Location: Switzerland

07 Nov 2018, 23:08

it's obviously not intended to work like that, but who cares? i think it's a nice addition to the game.

there's much more that tilts me, like pathing or lag. these issues are actually game losing, not the pull thing
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United States of America Cometk
ESOC Media Team
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Location: California

07 Nov 2018, 23:10

vills warping through tc = bug abuse :^)
sebnan12 wrote:whenever i see a picture of siege elephants i question why they do 40~ dmg when they hit u. that phat cannons probably loading coconuts
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New Zealand zoom
EP Project Lead
Posts: 8601
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

07 Nov 2018, 23:11

Ashvin wrote:
zoom wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Some may be nuts.

As far as I'm concerned, the definition of a bug is an unintended feature. How do you know it isn't one?

That's the reason why I used "maybe". But as told many times in this thread, the max velocity field in the proto files is made for this purpose only, which should clear that this feature is a planned one. Intended feature and a legal move in the game.

EDIT: zoi you slow.
ash you right.
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Italy Garja
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07 Nov 2018, 23:13

"Unintended" is a relevant argument imo. Not to make balance changes but merely for the discussion itself. Pull trick is more or less intended because it has to do with units formations. Units are intended to catch up if grouped together. Unfortunately, it can be abused as like grouping together units that are miles away.
For balance purposes the fact that it's not possible to draw the line is enough to define the outcome of the discussion.
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New Zealand zoom
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07 Nov 2018, 23:14

somppukunkku wrote:Tbh people who will abuse this regularly, I will start alt+d vs them
I am not Goodspeed and I approve of this message.
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