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New Zealand zoom
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07 Nov 2018, 23:15

edeholland wrote:Isn't that the reason we have EP? To fix some of the afwul decisions the devs made?
Ha! :lol:
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Great Britain WickedCossack
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07 Nov 2018, 23:20

gibson wrote:
WickedCossack wrote:
gibson wrote:Everyone seems to be focusing on the fact that it takes (a Small amount of) skill. Thats not relevant. The fact is its an unintended effect(so a bug) of a game mechanic.


Lot's of RTS classics like starcraft have had many unitended effects become well liked features, e.g muta stacking, lurker hold, bypassing supply etc

That's even if we could agree it is unintended. I don't see "unitended mechanic" as an argument that carries much, if any, weight.
So what would you consider alt d than? It's coded in the game that if you change your explorers formation when he's dead, he will revive with 0 Los. This is also an unintended mechanic that many consider to be cheating. Is there anything that separates this from 6 speed canons besides that 6 speed canons "takes more skill"?


No, but that is the point. In the same way starcraft patched many no skill bugs and kept muta stacking and 50 other unintended mechanics.

Though well I'd still argue it was intended since they included animations but as I said earlier I don't really think it's relevant either way.
France flontier
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07 Nov 2018, 23:22

I think the important isn't to categorize all this features because its pretty subjective (those who don't like, call this glitch abuse or unintended mechanic or whatever etc...) and you guys will never be agree.
But just to decide what of these features is good for the game or not. alt d ? explorer crackshot trick ? pull trick ? maybe one intended by devs is bad for the gameplay, and another is a "bug" but good for the gameplay and we should focus on this thing rather than check which one is a glitch (= forbidden) or not.
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Brazil macacoalbino
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07 Nov 2018, 23:28

@Mitoe
Mitoe wrote:Nerfing the max speed to 4.5 would make the pull trick essentially useless.

How? you'd still be able to kite musks, pull out of other skirms range, and other cool stuff like that, and it would not allow you to kite back cavalry halfway across the map.

Mitoe wrote:Also would break some unit formations: imagine trying to group a bunch of crossbows together with pikemen, the formation would always be broken because the crossbows don't have enough speed to catch up to the pikes. (edit: actually, I guess this is not the case, afterall grouping units together with cavalry still works because it slows the cav from 6.75 speed to 6 speed to compensate for the infantry's max speed)

That's my suggestion if people would want to eliminate the mechanic completely just max speed equal to unit's normal speed, and you don't break formations just because the units upfront would wait for others to catch up.

Mitoe wrote:I don't really see why this would need to be changed: the mechanic is clearly good, yes, but the situations in which you can use it effectively are still limited.

Ok, just think about this:
It's early 16 hundreds, you're a Dutch light infantry soldier. You are equipped with lightweight armor, a few utilities, your archaic rifle in hands, some gunpowder and bullets to reload it. You came to the battlefield ready to punish those clunky and heavily armored halberdiers from Philip, the third, from Spain, who is trying to claim his allegedly rightful lands. You're role in the battle is to utilize the fact that you are so lightly armored to shot and run back to safety buying time for your reloads and not letting the slow moving heavily armored opponents to come close - the sort of guerrilla warfare you want vs a well armed opponent. So you start to do that, kiting away the Spanish soldiers, and at some point, after a bit of fighting, you notice the cavalry from the opponent has been riding into battle. When you realize that, you're in the middle of the open field, and apparently all your friends are already running.
You were left behind.
The light horsemen armed with long spears come charging quickly to get to you. In the heat of the battle you try firing your rifle towards them to little effect, cause you missed your shot, so now you have to run for your life. At this point, you look at your friends not so far away but you are the last of them in the retreat. So you just gather all your energies, together with the adrenaline of having your life in danger, the incentive of seeing your friends so close and yet so far (probably some snort cocaine in somewhere in the middle of all this as well - maybe inject stimpack? idk)... then all of a sudden you're sprinting so fast that you outrun a fucking horse 1mile to safety.

Isn't that weird at all to you?
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Tuvalu gibson
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07 Nov 2018, 23:45

WickedCossack wrote:
gibson wrote:
Show hidden quotes
So what would you consider alt d than? It's coded in the game that if you change your explorers formation when he's dead, he will revive with 0 Los. This is also an unintended mechanic that many consider to be cheating. Is there anything that separates this from 6 speed canons besides that 6 speed canons "takes more skill"?


No, but that is the point. In the same way starcraft patched many no skill bugs and kept muta stacking and 50 other unintended mechanics.

Though well I'd still argue it was intended since they included animations but as I said earlier I don't really think it's relevant either way.
Thats fair, and at that point the discussion should change to whether it should be in the game. It's certainly not as black and white as alt d. I'd still argue that it shouldn't be, as it is often used to fix mistakes players make. 30 sepoys walking onto your cannons and you dont have units to block? Pull them. About to get raided cause you didnt herd well? Pull vils. Skirms walking to far in front of anti cav and about to get wrecked by cuirs? Pull them. It does make the make more mechanically taxing, but that argument in a vacuum isnt a plus or a minus.
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Italy Garja
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07 Nov 2018, 23:55

Maybe ye we can consider nerfing all max speeds and see how it goes. However, is it worth it even?
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Austria supahons
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07 Nov 2018, 23:58

@gibson, @momuuu

How do you fix it on EP then? - It's "beyond repair" on RE, if you edit the protoyfile, because of the crc-error. Yes, nobody knows exactly what the devs had in mind, but all we have is the code - no interpretation. After several versions nilla + tad this is the end result ;)

Yes, the 6 speed falcs are a bad side effect, if you pull them. If you nerf the maxvelocity then the units will take a lot more time to group together/ catch up again. The pull-radius is limited too.
You basically have to rethink the whole gamemechanic, if you want to change this correctly. (How to buff/nerf the maxspeed of each unit?). It definitely would differentiate the EP even more from RE.
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08 Nov 2018, 00:01

I never said it should be fixed!
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Canada Mitoe
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08 Nov 2018, 00:08

gibson wrote:Thats fair, and at that point the discussion should change to whether it should be in the game. It's certainly not as black and white as alt d. I'd still argue that it shouldn't be, as it is often used to fix mistakes players make. 30 sepoys walking onto your cannons and you dont have units to block? Pull them. About to get raided cause you didnt herd well? Pull vils. Skirms walking to far in front of anti cav and about to get wrecked by cuirs? Pull them. It does make the make more mechanically taxing, but that argument in a vacuum isnt a plus or a minus.


I would argue that it allows you to take more risks; that you are able to position your army more aggressively and make use of resources otherwise inaccessible to you as a result of being conscious of the pull trick and being confident in your ability to make use of it.
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Tuvalu gibson
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08 Nov 2018, 00:14

Yea its the same thing really just worded differently.
Netherlands momuuu
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08 Nov 2018, 00:16

It adds extra layers to the game, just like the crackshot trick. Me like.
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Canada Mitoe
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08 Nov 2018, 00:20

gibson wrote:Yea its the same thing really just worded differently.

So what's wrong with that? If you think it makes the game easier then I'd have to disagree with you.
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Austria supahons
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08 Nov 2018, 00:21

momuuu wrote:I never said it should be fixed!


yes, but i usually try find a solution, if the result isn't good (~"unintended behaviour"). This discussion is otherwise quite pointless. Then people will just start to use it more frequently, because it definitely gives you an advantage in certain situations.

*edit
I've read it again, i should have differentiated both of your arguments more, i've added them somehow together and then jumped to a conclusion.
The reason why this happens had already been solved for me at the protoy file point of the discussion and was secondary then. (unintended behaviour can be neutral, positive or negative for the gameplay, but what are the practical implications then)
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Tuvalu gibson
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08 Nov 2018, 01:34

Mitoe wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea its the same thing really just worded differently.

So what's wrong with that? If you think it makes the game easier then I'd have to disagree with you.
It makes the game harder mechanically but easier strategically. You can get away with more cause you can bail yourself out with the pull trick. Should I poke with skirms and risk getting caught by a cuir switch? If you can use the pull trick that risk does not exist and a strategic decision, one which has won and lost many games, has been removed. Thats just one of many examples where strategic unit positioning and movement are less relevant with it.
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France bwinner
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08 Nov 2018, 07:09

gibson wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea its the same thing really just worded differently.

So what's wrong with that? If you think it makes the game easier then I'd have to disagree with you.
It makes the game harder mechanically but easier strategically. You can get away with more cause you can bail yourself out with the pull trick. Should I poke with skirms and risk getting caught by a cuir switch? If you can use the pull trick that risk does not exist and a strategic decision, one which has won and lost many games, has been removed. Thats just one of many examples where strategic unit positioning and movement are less relevant with it.

Exept you can also pull handcav forward. Anyway that's bs, you won't prevent a cav Switch with this since you need more goons than skirm to make it work and don't fear cav switch in this case
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Poland pecelot
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08 Nov 2018, 09:00

how about we ban creeping treasure guardians? :maniac:
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Germany yemshi
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08 Nov 2018, 09:07

I don't do it anyway! Ha!
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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08 Nov 2018, 12:08

Gibson et al have a point but so do the people saying it's a feature. I think it's especially hard to argue for either side in this instance because it has both pros and cons. Doesn't just add a fun mechanic to the game, it also removes consistency in the game design. Intuitively, unit speed in RTS should be a constant. It has balance implications as well. I can imagine cav being weaker with this in mind, and cannons stronger.

About the starcraft:bw comparison: Starcraft on the highest level is a game mostly decided by mechanical skill, whereas high level AoE3 games are mostly decided by decision making. So we shouldn't attach the same amount of weight to the addition of new mechanics or to the loss of strategic depth. Strategic depth weighs heavier here because it's more impactful in this game, and mechanics not as heavy.
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Poland pecelot
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08 Nov 2018, 14:01

it is constant — increasing the speed requires specific circumstances, which, as far as I know, are stable
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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08 Nov 2018, 15:09

That's not how constants work
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Tuvalu gibson
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08 Nov 2018, 15:22

pecelot wrote:it is constant — increasing the speed requires specific circumstances, which, as far as I know, are stable
constant means it stays the same genius
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New Zealand zoom
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08 Nov 2018, 17:54

Goodspeed wrote:That's not how constants work
In present-day Poland, it is.
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪You can't trust anyone, because you're untrustable. How can you trust someone you know can't trust you?♫"
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Poland pecelot
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08 Nov 2018, 20:17

I meant that rules for that are the same, right? in order to increase unit's speed, you have to group it with a faster one
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Netherlands edeholland
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08 Nov 2018, 20:18

pecelot wrote:I meant that rules for that are the same, right? in order to increase unit's speed, you have to group it with a faster one

No, you just have to group it with a larger group of units, as I understand it
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Austria supahons
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08 Nov 2018, 20:43

pecelot wrote:I meant that rules for that are the same, right? in order to increase unit's speed, you have to group it with a faster one


no, there is a predefined maximum velocity of each unit in the protoy file.
1) You can only pull units (with formation) or vills (without formation) but not both + Group 1 in front has to have more units than Group 2.

2) 1+1 pull - If you pull a unit within a certain radius it will start to run. They both can stand still but you have to click on the right spot for it to work or they will slow down until you split them up again. Then you can pull again if you fail the first time.

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