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United States of America Papist
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09 Nov 2018, 20:08

Mitoe wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Reviving your explorer with a single button is not a game feature; it's stupid, unskillful, and abusive. And that's the end of the discussion on that one.

What a stupid attitude, sorry but this behaviour is so offensive. You don't even want to consider stepping out of your own bias to hear some other opinion.

I've heard the arguments for Alt-D being a "mechanic," and I completely disagree with all of them. I'm completely willing to have an open discussion about other game mechanics and bugs, but I will always consider Alt-D cheating.


Explain how alt d is cheating but unit snare is not, then. Both are features of the game (hotkey stance change and a cohesive formation mechanic, respectively) being used in a way that the developers did not intend.

Note: Keep in mind that I am not saying alt d is balanced. I'm saying that calling one exploit legal and another illegal is illogical.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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Sweden Gendarme
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09 Nov 2018, 20:09

#SemanticsMatter
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09 Nov 2018, 20:14

Mitoe wrote:Fine, I can understand the attitude thing. The whole "end of discussion" thing was a bit off-putting. Sorry for that.

However, Alt-D as a topic of discussion does not have a lot of depth to it and I think I've seen pretty much every possible argument for it to be a legit game-mechanic and disagree with all of them. It's a lot more black-and-white than other topics, and I can't see how anyone could possibly change my mind: on that, at least, I was not exaggerating.

So thats YOUR opinion. Not a fact or anything. I strongly dislike the toxic attitude about alt-d when in the end it it's just an opinion. There's no end of discussion if it's just an opinion, there never is.
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France Kaiserklein
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09 Nov 2018, 20:21

Papist wrote:Explain how alt d is cheating but unit snare is not, then. Both are features of the game (hotkey stance change and a cohesive formation mechanic, respectively) being used in a way that the developers did not intend.

What are you even talking about?
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Sweden Gendarme
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09 Nov 2018, 20:23

momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Fine, I can understand the attitude thing. The whole "end of discussion" thing was a bit off-putting. Sorry for that.

However, Alt-D as a topic of discussion does not have a lot of depth to it and I think I've seen pretty much every possible argument for it to be a legit game-mechanic and disagree with all of them. It's a lot more black-and-white than other topics, and I can't see how anyone could possibly change my mind: on that, at least, I was not exaggerating.

So thats YOUR opinion. Not a fact or anything. I strongly dislike the toxic attitude about alt-d when in the end it it's just an opinion. There's no end of discussion if it's just an opinion, there never is.
Do you blindly dismiss a paper that claims to have disproven general relativity? There is never an end of discussion, end of discussion.
Capitalization matters.https://pastebin.com/KEuaQCrR
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09 Nov 2018, 20:27

Gendarme wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Fine, I can understand the attitude thing. The whole "end of discussion" thing was a bit off-putting. Sorry for that.

However, Alt-D as a topic of discussion does not have a lot of depth to it and I think I've seen pretty much every possible argument for it to be a legit game-mechanic and disagree with all of them. It's a lot more black-and-white than other topics, and I can't see how anyone could possibly change my mind: on that, at least, I was not exaggerating.

So thats YOUR opinion. Not a fact or anything. I strongly dislike the toxic attitude about alt-d when in the end it it's just an opinion. There's no end of discussion if it's just an opinion, there never is.
Do you blindly dismiss a paper that claims to have disproven general relativity? There is never an end of discussion, end of discussion.

I'd blindly dismiss a paper that claims to have disproven general relativity because I'm not qualified to deal with that!
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United States of America Papist
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09 Nov 2018, 20:43

Kaiserklein wrote:
Papist wrote:Explain how alt d is cheating but unit snare is not, then. Both are features of the game (hotkey stance change and a cohesive formation mechanic, respectively) being used in a way that the developers did not intend.

What are you even talking about?


Sorry, I meant unit pull not unit snare.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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09 Nov 2018, 20:47

Papist wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I've heard the arguments for Alt-D being a "mechanic," and I completely disagree with all of them. I'm completely willing to have an open discussion about other game mechanics and bugs, but I will always consider Alt-D cheating.


Explain how alt d is cheating but unit snare is not, then. Both are features of the game (hotkey stance change and a cohesive formation mechanic, respectively) being used in a way that the developers did not intend.

Note: Keep in mind that I am not saying alt d is balanced. I'm saying that calling one exploit legal and another illegal is illogical.

Don't see how you can say that dropping a snared unit back is not a intended mechanic. It's really not comparable to Alt-D for me. There's nothing in the game to indicate that this is unintended.

Alt-D on the other hand... everything screams that this is not only unintended, but also feels very gimmicky. Why should changing your dead explorer from ranged stance to melee stance (there's not even an option on the UI for this while he's dead) make him stand up? Why does he stand up instantaneously instead of performing the animation where he stands up and brushes himself off when you rescue him? Why does it not matter if your explorer has 1 hp or 500hp when you use Alt-D, but you cannot rescue him naturally until a certain hp threshold has been reached? Everything about it feels like cheating.

Edit: Ah, you meant pulling. I think the argument is the same. There's literally stats and animations in the game to support this action, whereas Alt-D has none of these.
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09 Nov 2018, 20:50

Mitoe wrote:
Papist wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Explain how alt d is cheating but unit snare is not, then. Both are features of the game (hotkey stance change and a cohesive formation mechanic, respectively) being used in a way that the developers did not intend.

Note: Keep in mind that I am not saying alt d is balanced. I'm saying that calling one exploit legal and another illegal is illogical.

Don't see how you can say that dropping a snared unit back is not a intended mechanic. It's really not comparable to Alt-D for me. There's nothing in the game to indicate that this is unintended.

Alt-D on the other hand... everything screams that this is not only unintended, but also feels very gimmicky. Why should changing your dead explorer from ranged stance to melee stance (there's not even an option on the UI for this while he's dead) make him stand up? Why does he stand up instantaneously instead of performing the animation where he stands up and brushes himself off when you rescue him? Why does it not matter if your explorer has 1 hp or 500hp when you use Alt-D, but you cannot rescue him naturally until a certain hp threshold has been reached? Everything about it feels like cheating.

Edit: Ah, you meant pulling. I think the argument is the same. There's literally stats and animations in the game to support this action, whereas Alt-D has none of these.

Why does it matter if alt-d is intended or not?
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09 Nov 2018, 20:55

Satoshi's vision, bro
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09 Nov 2018, 20:58

It doesn't; I'm actually usually the first to get really annoyed by that argument. It just doesn't feel natural and doesn't fit well into the game. If I kill your explorer, it should remain dead until rescued when it's reached the appropriate hp or been ransomed. Imagine if changing your stance also reset the cooldown on your crackshot, would that be cheating?

Pulling in comparison fits into already existing mechanics in the game, and makes a lot more sense than dying and coming back to life instantly. Sure, I guess you can make the argument that unit speed should remain consistent in all situations, but you can't deny that it takes a lot more skill to use the pull trick than to use something like Alt-D. It would be different if changing the stance on my skirmishers gave them 6 speed for absolutely no reason; in that case I would consider that cheating.

Really we're just back to the discussion of what makes a game mechanic a healthy one or not. I guess the point is, that with the pull trick there are limiting factors present that make it a more-or-less balanced and well-rounded mechanic, whereas Alt-D doesn't have any drawbacks or take any skill, unless you consider the LOS a drawback.


Maybe the other possible discussion is whether or not bug abuse is cheating? Personally, for me bug abuse is cheating. There are stats and animations to completely support the existence of the pull trick. For me, this means it is not a bug, despite what some other people in this thread seem to think. All of the stats in the game indicate that this is how the units are supposed to interact. There's nothing in the stats to indicate that your explorer should or is supposed to revive upon changing your stance with a button unavailable on the UI and that ignores revival animations. There's nothing in the games stats to indicate that cancelling your crackshot ability means that you get to ignore the ROF stat.

If it is your belief that bug abuse ≠ cheating then maybe this is where our disagreements are coming from? This is also often where the intended/unintended argument tries to fit in I think.
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09 Nov 2018, 21:45

Mitoe wrote:Alt-D doesn't have any drawbacks or take any skill, unless you consider the LOS a drawback.

Agree with the rest of your post, but this doesn't seem correct. If you just mindlessly alt-d your hero, you are going to feed the opponent with free shipments and achieve nothing for yourself.
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United States of America Papist
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09 Nov 2018, 21:46

Alt-D on the other hand... everything screams that this is not only unintended, but also feels very gimmicky. Why should changing your dead explorer from ranged stance to melee stance (there's not even an option on the UI for this while he's dead) make him stand up? Why does he stand up instantaneously instead of performing the animation where he stands up and brushes himself off when you rescue him? Why does it not matter if your explorer has 1 hp or 500hp when you use Alt-D, but you cannot rescue him naturally until a certain hp threshold has been reached? Everything about it feels like cheating.

I agree with you on alt d, but being able to make cannons sprint feels pretty unintended and gimmicky to me as well. I'm not saying alt-d is a good thing to have in the game, just that it doesn't make sense to attack it on the grounds you did while defending something else that fulfills all your criteria for bug abuse.

Edit: Ah, you meant pulling. I think the argument is the same. There's literally stats and animations in the game to support this action, whereas Alt-D has none of these.

Yes, but that stuff is in the game to make unit formations more cohesive, not make cannons sprint or snared units break away. Especially in the case of cannons, unit pull blatantly violates the balancing principles of the game (big damage-dealers but slow and vulnerable)
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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France Kaiserklein
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09 Nov 2018, 22:09

Falcs in horse mode have the same speed as standard infantry units. Dunno why you would expect them to behave in a different way.

I swear I shouldn't have pulled my falcs in that game lol, now everyone thinks pulling falcs is super duper broken, when it's in fact totally useless in 95% of cases. It's much more powerful with skirmishers since they can actually hit and run...
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09 Nov 2018, 22:19

Alt-d is completely unintended bug. Pull trick is more similar to explorer rof exploit. Both are just exception of an otherwise consistent and intended design.
Honestly in all of this, the only objective argument to justify the pull trick is that it somehow compensates for the snare mechanic which can be extreme too.
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09 Nov 2018, 22:27

Kaiserklein wrote:Falcs in horse mode have the same speed as standard infantry units. Dunno why you would expect them to behave in a different way.

I swear I shouldn't have pulled my falcs in that game lol, now everyone thinks pulling falcs is super duper broken, when it's in fact totally useless in 95% of cases. It's much more powerful with skirmishers since they can actually hit and run...


I chose cannons because it is the most visible example of max speed being abused; obviously there are others that are more common.

All that I'm saying is that max speed is not in this game so that players can strategically pull units -- it's there to help units stay in formation. When players use it to pull, they are no using it in the way it was intended to be used. Just like the hotkeys for unit stances were not intended to revive your explorer. They are both exploits; therefore saying one is legitimate and the other isn't is illogical.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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09 Nov 2018, 22:30

you know what, tabben is right, even if half you fucks played as much as you do spamming the forums we wouldnt have to worry about inactivity
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09 Nov 2018, 22:41

Papist wrote:All that I'm saying is that max speed is not in this game so that players can strategically pull units -- it's there to help units stay in formation. When players use it to pull, they are no using it in the way it was intended to be used. Just like the hotkeys for unit stances were not intended to revive your explorer. They are both exploits; therefore saying one is legitimate and the other isn't is illogical.

Nope. Pull trick was intended to work exactly this way, it's how it was coded, and it's necessary for the units to move properly. The devs did intend units to run fast towards each other to group together when close enough. Obviously though, they didn't expect people would use it for micro purposes.
Alt+d was never intended to even exist. It's just a bug that was never patched. And if we had ways to fix it nicely, it wouldn't exist on EP.

So these are not comparable.
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09 Nov 2018, 22:50

it seems like it's an integral part of game path-finding — how about we learn to deal with it?
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10 Nov 2018, 00:14

Papist wrote:
Alt-D on the other hand... everything screams that this is not only unintended, but also feels very gimmicky. Why should changing your dead explorer from ranged stance to melee stance (there's not even an option on the UI for this while he's dead) make him stand up? Why does he stand up instantaneously instead of performing the animation where he stands up and brushes himself off when you rescue him? Why does it not matter if your explorer has 1 hp or 500hp when you use Alt-D, but you cannot rescue him naturally until a certain hp threshold has been reached? Everything about it feels like cheating.

I agree with, but being able to make cannons sprint feels pretty unintended and gimmicky to me as well. I'm not defending alt-d is a good thing to have in the game, just that it doesn't make sense to attack it on the grounds you did while defending something else that fulfills all your criteria for bug abuse.

Edit: Ah, you meant pulling. I think the argument is the same. There's literally stats and animations in the game to support this action, whereas Alt-D has none of these.

Yes, but that stuff is in the game to make unit formations more cohesive, not make cannons sprint or snared units break away. Especially in the case of cannons, unit pull blatantly violates the balancing principles of the game (big damage-dealers but slow and vulnerable)

I don't see how by anything I just said that the pull trick fits into the same criteria as a bug.

At this point it seems more like this conversation is devolving into whether or not it's a bug; which I would argue it clearly is not. It's likely an unintended consequence of the mechanic, for sure, but it's definitely not a bug--with the way the mechanic is designed it simply makes sense for it to work this way. I cannot say the same about Alt-D or crackshot cancelling.
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Tuvalu gibson
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10 Nov 2018, 00:59

The reason why the "pull trick" is like alt d and why it lumped it in is because it breaks the rules of the game. In aoe3 you have constant stats. Thats just the way the game works. A tc has 6500 hp, a wall has 3000 hp, a musketeer has 150, 23 attack, 4 speed, and 20%(?) resist. Now there are ways you can improve these stats. You tech. Veteran musketeers, advanced buildings, counter infantry rifling all change a units set stats to another set stats. Many civs have unique ways of changing civs stats too with other units, buildings etc. The diamyo boosts units attacks, inspiration boosts units stats etc. Every single way of changing a unit stat has a singular set in stone way of doing it. Move a unit into an aura, send a shipment, click a tech. The "pull trick" changes a constant stat in a way that goes against the rules of the game. First off, its free. Name a singular other way that you can boost a units stats for free. Cover mode maybe, you increase resist but lose speed and attack, so it can hardly be considered overall to be a boost. Second, every single other way of boosting stats has a set way of doing so. You click the veteran upgrade, you send advanced buildings, you have have the ashi close to the diamyo. There is no other stat that is improved "mechanically", so to speak. There is not a singular other way in this game to changes a units stats at will(and for the better) besides pulling.

Its impossible to argue that its not a bug, unless you think the developers intended it to be there. A bug is an error, flaw, failure or fault in a computer program or system that causes it to produce an incorrect or unexpected result, or to behave in unintended ways.If you dont think the "pull trick" causes units to behave in unintended ways I dont even know what more I can say. The fact is it is 1) a bug that 2)breaks rules set by the game.
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10 Nov 2018, 01:06

it doesn't break the rules set by the game. there is a max velocity for each unit and they are intended to be able to sprint to each other in order to maintain formations. it is an expected result and it functions the way it is programmed to. it might only be an unexpected result when it comes to the context of micromanaging units in a player vs player engagement.
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10 Nov 2018, 01:35

gibson wrote:The reason why the "pull trick" is like alt d and why it lumped it in is because it breaks the rules of the game. In aoe3 you have constant stats. Thats just the way the game works.

...except that max running speed is a stat that's coded onto every single unit in the game to be 50% higher than their base speed. If you're telling me that they didn't write that code intentionally then I don't know what is or is not intentional.
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10 Nov 2018, 01:49

Vills weren’t meant to be warped in and out of the TC, it’s bug abuse they were meant to walk at 4 speed and bump into each other around crates. Tbh people who will abuse villwarping regularly, I will start alt+d vs them
sebnan12 wrote:whenever i see a picture of siege elephants i question why they do 40~ dmg when they hit u. that phat cannons probably loading coconuts
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Tuvalu gibson
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10 Nov 2018, 01:53

Nice you've both just completely, and seemly intentionally, ignored my point and brought up a piece of irrelevant information that's been brought up over and over and over again. Why does anything happen in the game? Because its coded in the game. No shit Sherlock.

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