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_H2O wrote:The unintended mechanics are what makes high skill plays so exciting. I never cared about the “devs intentions” argument. The devs were regular people like anyone else. Starcraft broodwar has tons of unintended mechanics like mutlisk stacking (group muta with one overlord far away and they clump so well it’s like one unit) that made the game exciting.

Pull trick let’s top level players do interesting things with precisely placed clicks and understanding of the formation mechanics to squeeze out extra unit kills and be more aggressive than average players or save units that are in danger.

You can do things like shoot with your muskets then force them into long formation to run ahead (by clicking far ahead). Then shoot again with the front few and force long formation again to hunt down retreating infantry. The same thing works with goon units. So it’s not a purely defensive tactic. That’s just one of several different ways to use it.

That falc pull example - you could have caught the falcs still if you were better coordinated and that use of the pull truck was a pretty basic one that required all his units be tied up to make the pull happen.

Ok I'll keep it in mind next time I'm gonna box 50 axe riders.

49

https://youtu.be/XJ8RxpHUR-4

this video show about Advanced pull trick i would call advanced pull trick skill because u are able to do that in every moment in every situation,but hard to do when u are busy,or during a fight for save vill for ex so yes for me its a skill not a bug.

Aizamk wrote:49

48 I believe.
taunt 48 too.

2016 Kreygasm

I don’t mind if you want to feed 10,000 resources of units into a 50 wood wall segment with a box.

I've always been a little out of this discussion but I think that Ryan hits the nail on the head here.

It's like Brood War. Half of that game's mechanics are from bugs almost. They made it into a great game.

Yeah "it wasn't the devs' intention" isn't really an argument. If the devs intended something and it turns out to make the game worse, we should always prioritize having a better game over keeping it as close as possible to what the devs intended. Frankly, who gives a flying fruit what they intended?

But "bugs create new mechanics and that makes the game fun" isn't an argument in itself, either. The discussion shouldn't be about whether it was intended or whether it "creates new mechanics". Not all new mechanics are good. Alt-D created a new mechanic. You can even argue Moesbar hacks do.

The discussion should be about only one thing: Is it good for the game?
With that in mind I could go either way on the pull trick, personally. It has upsides and downsides. 5/10

Thats the thing its hardly doing good for the game as it covers up mistakes with a very simple trick that people seem to think requires skill when its really piss easy

Yeah its ez af, even i can do that

Can we please skip the shit arguments? Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant. Many things are easy (like herding - unless you're somppu, L2ShiftClickHerdForFuckSake), that doesn't make them good or bad for the game.

Goodspeed wrote:Yeah "it wasn't the devs' intention" isn't really an argument. If the devs intended something and it turns out to make the game worse, we should always prioritize having a better game over keeping it as close as possible to what the devs intended. Frankly, who gives a flying fruit what they intended?

But "bugs create new mechanics and that makes the game fun" isn't an argument in itself, either. The discussion shouldn't be about whether it was intended or whether it "creates new mechanics". Not all new mechanics are good. Alt-D created a new mechanic. You can even argue Moesbar hacks do.

The discussion should be about only one thing: Is it good for the game?
With that in mind I could go either way on the pull trick, personally. It has upsides and downsides. 5/10

I'm still unaware of the downsides, though admittedly I haven't read this thread too closely and it's probably been repeated 10 times.

I think pull trick is healthy for the game since mechanical input is rewarded with more value out of your units. That's just too good on paper.

The pull thing was probably put in the game together with pathing algorithms to improve units macro. So if a vill lags behind the rest of the group, this mechanic would make it possible for vills to get bunched up again by pulling them all together. Instead of having vills which are spread over a huge map area walking in parallel (which can increase lag), it's better if you add a mechanic that makes them converge to a more selectable group.

It probably had nothing to do with anti-raid or defensive tactics, because if devs actually considered that, they wouldn't have added snare effects in the game.

It's not a bug, it's a macro mechanic that was probably meant to reduce lag by making units converge to a smaller area on the map when selected and moved, and which has unintended effects for fights too.

Cool video @Mosx

My only advice is next time , get to the point more quickly. I waited 2:30 for the money shot!!

_H2O wrote:The unintended mechanics are what makes high skill plays so exciting. I never cared about the “devs intentions” argument. The devs were regular people like anyone else. Starcraft broodwar has tons of unintended mechanics like mutlisk stacking (group muta with one overlord far away and they clump so well it’s like one unit) that made the game exciting.

Pull trick let’s top level players do interesting things with precisely placed clicks and understanding of the formation mechanics to squeeze out extra unit kills and be more aggressive than average players or save units that are in danger.

You can do things like shoot with your muskets then force them into long formation to run ahead (by clicking far ahead). Then shoot again with the front few and force long formation again to hunt down retreating infantry. The same thing works with goon units. So it’s not a purely defensive tactic. That’s just one of several different ways to use it.

That falc pull example - you could have caught the falcs still if you were better coordinated and that use of the pull truck was a pretty basic one that required all his units be tied up to make the pull happen.

I don't care about the pull trick either way, but I think the anti-pull people have a little bit better case than what you said here.

The trick would be nice if it was a small thing that allowed differentiation at the top level. But I think the fear is that the pull trick changes the game too much. For one, it allows you to get out of some mistakes that you should have actually been punished for. Secondly, it may change the meta in a (in their opinion) bad way. Like if it makes hand cav even more obsolete or situational in some matchups, that's bad.

tabben wrote:Can we please skip the shit arguments? Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant. Many things are easy (like herding - unless you're somppu, L2ShiftClickHerdForFuckSake), that doesn't make them good or bad for the game.

Being easy is definetely part of the problem. Great effect + easy to do is a problem just like a good + easy civ is.

tabben wrote:Can we please skip the shit arguments? Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant. Many things are easy (like herding - unless you're somppu, L2ShiftClickHerdForFuckSake), that doesn't make them good or bad for the game.

Haha seriously why tf doesn't @deleted_user2 use shift click, it give me PTSD after watching his stream.

So many player here claming its easy or game changing but... personnally I'm still waiting from the beginning of the tournament someone able to prove us all of this.
Looks like its not that easy

What do you mean? It happens here and there it is game changing often enough to raise an issue.

flontier wrote:So many player here claming its easy or game changing but... personnally I'm still waiting from the beginning of the tournament someone able to prove us all of this.
Looks like its not that easy

so it's not easy to have two groups of units and than drag box them together? Doing the Cannon pull done in the earlier clip literally anyone could do. It's a bit harder to pull like an envoy with an explorer but still something anyone who practices can do.

ovi12 wrote:

tabben wrote:Can we please skip the shit arguments? Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant. Many things are easy (like herding - unless you're somppu, L2ShiftClickHerdForFuckSake), that doesn't make them good or bad for the game.

Haha seriously why tf doesn't @deleted_user2 use shift click, it give me PTSD after watching his stream.

Shift click is bad early. If those garja goats wander around on age 1, u might shoot them all away.
U have spare apm anyway.

Yeah shift clicking goats is bad

If it's in the game you can use it

gibson wrote:

flontier wrote:So many player here claming its easy or game changing but... personnally I'm still waiting from the beginning of the tournament someone able to prove us all of this.
Looks like its not that easy

so it's not easy to have two groups of units and than drag box them together? Doing the Cannon pull done in the earlier clip literally anyone could do. It's a bit harder to pull like an envoy with an explorer but still something anyone who practices can do.

Well idk, doing it in a time to micro is easy, not in a game where you dont have all your apm focus on that, ask to the top 8 tournament player, i personnally didnt see anyone of them use it easily in their games or win a fight thanks to this.

ovi12 wrote:

_H2O wrote:[spoiler=]The unintended mechanics are what makes high skill plays so exciting. I never cared about the “devs intentions” argument. The devs were regular people like anyone else. Starcraft broodwar has tons of unintended mechanics like mutlisk stacking (group muta with one overlord far away and they clump so well it’s like one unit) that made the game exciting.

Pull trick let’s top level players do interesting things with precisely placed clicks and understanding of the formation mechanics to squeeze out extra unit kills and be more aggressive than average players or save units that are in danger.

You can do things like shoot with your muskets then force them into long formation to run ahead (by clicking far ahead). Then shoot again with the front few and force long formation again to hunt down retreating infantry. The same thing works with goon units. So it’s not a purely defensive tactic. That’s just one of several different ways to use it.

That falc pull example - you could have caught the falcs still if you were better coordinated and that use of the pull truck was a pretty basic one that required all his units be tied up to make the pull happen.[/spoiler]

I don't care about the pull trick either way, but I think the anti-pull people have a little bit better case than what you said here.

The trick would be nice if it was a small thing that allowed differentiation at the top level. But I think the fear is that the pull trick changes the game too much. For one, it allows you to get out of some mistakes that you should have actually been punished for. Secondly, it may change the meta in a (in their opinion) bad way. Like if it makes hand cav even more obsolete or situational in some matchups, that's bad.

Part of _H2O's point is that the pull trick does indeed allow for differentiation at the top level. while the pull trick makes certain powerful maneuvers easily accessible, it also allows for high-level micro capabilities to be utilized to gain smaller advantages that can set a player ahead in a fight. the pull trick does not "change the game too much" because it is the game.

I strongly agree with H2O on his points. Competitive gaming was born out of unintentional mechanics. Broodwar was the beginning of competitive gaming as we know it today, and a large part of the excitement it had in south korea revolved around players' abilities to surprise the audience, and become increasingly skilled, seemingly with no limit. More unintentional mechanics hidden within a game -> more options players have for spending apm -> more room for player growth in the long term -> higher skill ceiling. An even better example of this is SSB melee. The game is almost 18 years old, and people are STILL discovering new mechanics, and (perhaps until SSB ultimate's release) the community has been growing larger than ever each year. And the matches are insanely fun to watch. Without the wave dash, which is likely to be the most important and game-changing unintentional mechanics in melee, the competition likely would have died off years ago.

In my opinion, the best solution to the pull trick is to abuse it to its fullest. Utilize it in ways that your opponent can't.

in case you're unfamiliar with the SSB melee scene, [spoiler=spoiler]this was a sick match from last weekend. Axe is a pikachu main, and until recently he's been somewhat of an underdog, mostly because pikachu is a very difficult character to play at the top level. Leffen has been a top player for many years now, though he's slightly rusty from playing Ultimate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unJlfmN_Tqs[/spoiler]