Pull" Trick" discussion

[macacoalbino]

I agree it adds something to the game and makes it more interesting, but it still feels too powerful sometimes tbh. Especially when you really know how to abuse it, which most people don't (that falc pull for example was looking impressive but it's really easy to do)

That's the whole point, it's extremely easy to do, it's not adding any skill to the game really

[macacoalbino]

And I know I could've clicked the cav a bit further to the back, but wtf I thought a simple snare would break the running annimation. Notice that my meteor actually hits the leftmost falc.

[macacoalbino]

Thats the thing its hardly doing good for the game as it covers up mistakes with a very simple trick that people seem to think requires skill when its really piss easy

This

[Jaeger]

Can we please skip the shit arguments? Whether it's easy or not is irrelevant. Many things are easy (like herding - unless you're somppu, L2ShiftClickHerdForFuckSake), that doesn't make them good or bad for the game.

Haha seriously why tf doesn't @deleted_user2 use shift click, it give me PTSD after watching his stream.

Shift click is bad early. If those garja goats wander around on age 1, u might shoot them all away.
U have spare apm anyway.

Well ok that's fair, but I mean at least vills building houses and stuff xD

[_H2O]

Snare does effect pull speed I am pretty sure. I also don’t think it’s that easy. It’s one of the more nuanced unit control things I do. If it’s easy then we should see lots of folks doing it for free PR.

[Mitoe]

The “it’s easy” and “it covers up mistakes” arguments are getting pretty stale and aren’t all that true. It’s only “easy” when all of the stars align and you happen to have the correct composition of units to pull without really having to think. You want to see differentiation at the top level? Try pulling 20 skirms with 10 goons by pulling 7-9 skirms at a time with those 10 goons all within a fraction of a second. That’s where you start to see real skillful use of the pull trick that I’ve yet to see anyone other than Kaiser make use of.

There’s a lot of unexplored potential here that is not so “easy.”

Does it cover up positional mistakes? Sometimes. But it also enables you to be more intentionally aggressive with your positioning if you’re aware of how best you can use the pull trick to avoid getting caught unawares, but it is not at all super easy to do this appropriately if you have an optimal unit composition where you would have to split your units into several small groups to pull them away. This is the case in most games, which is why you rarely see the pull trick determining the outcome of the game.


To me it feels like the resistance to the pull trick is just resistance to change—the same thing we see in ESOC Patch change discussions all the time, and this one arguably hasn’t had as much impact on the game yet than almost any single EP change. People are just afraid to have to change the way they play.

[deleted_user]

Once I decide to pull trick (cheat) I'll be pr 40 ez.

[macacoalbino]

It's easy, it covers up mistakes, it's overpowered and there is nothing your opponent can do about it when you use it.
I suppose there is no point arguing cause you guys will not admit it. I'll just abuse it as well, cause otherwise people will just abuse the skillbox trick against me and I can't do anything about it.

[Mitoe]

If it were really that easy I wouldn’t see people failing it miserably all the time at all levels of play.

In many situations it’s not even relevant. Completely useless in skirm or musk wars, for example.

[Garja]

Surely it is irrelevant when all units are of the same type. Problem is when a faster unit pulls a slower one (this is like the 3rd time I say this, sounds like a deja vu).

[_H2O]

It’s actually relevant when it’s all the same type. You can shoot with the front row while the back row is walking and pull the skirms so they are effectively never wasting movement time to shoot.

Or the example above where I talk about forcing the long formation to push units ahead.

It’s a great mechanic because there’s no finite limit to how well you can execute it and it’s not easy to do well most of the time.

[Mitoe]

It’s actually relevant when it’s all the same type. You can shoot with the front row while the back row is walking and pull the skirms so they are effectively never wasting movement time to shoot.

Or the example above where I talk about forcing the long formation to push units ahead.

It’s a great mechanic because there’s no finite limit to how well you can execute it and it’s not easy to do well most of the time.

To be fair, you're not quite talking about the same thing everyone else is, even though it is also a result of the pull trick.

[_H2O]

I am. You can have 25 skirms walking and 10 shoot. Then right click them all again and the 10 behind will sprint to catch up.

It all falls under the same mechanic though each one is a different application

[fightinfrenchman]

It is very funny to me to see people who would be frothing at the mouth at the suggestion that alt+d is okay defending this

[deleted_user0]

@Mitoe Ppl fail because they never really bothered to get the measurements right and practice it. Afaik if you get the angle correct it always works. So its not about having high apm or whatever. It takes some skill, but so does the crackshot abuse, which is imo much harder to do, yet we dont allow that. And iirc you were against using that, for good reason. But it seems quite hypocritical to me to be in favor of this cuz skill but against other things which require skill yet break the game.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Crackshot abuse is probably harder to execute (it requires much more apm), and it is less game breaking than pull trick to be honest.

[Mitoe]

I am. You can have 25 skirms walking and 10 shoot. Then right click them all again and the 10 behind will sprint to catch up.

It all falls under the same mechanic though each one is a different application

What I meant is that I'm pretty sure what you're describing is a mostly unknown application of the mechanic to basically everyone in this thread.

@deleted_user It's not really comparable at all to the crackshot ROF reset. This is something that you interact with every single game, intentionally or not. Even if I wanted to be against it, I can't stop myself from using it in game. The pull trick also affects every civ, whereas the crackshot cancelling affects only Euros + Iro.

I don't see any reason why we should be so against the pull trick. It feels like most of the people speaking against it are the same people who claim that AoE3 is a game that requires very little in the way of mechanics, and you want to reduce what little there is even further? That just makes no sense. You can say it's easy to do, but you're simply wrong about that lol. It is easy to do the most basic of pulls, but there are many other ways to use the mechanic that have barely even been explored by the majority of the community yet.

[Garja]

It’s actually relevant when it’s all the same type. You can shoot with the front row while the back row is walking and pull the skirms so they are effectively never wasting movement time to shoot.

Or the example above where I talk about forcing the long formation to push units ahead.

It’s a great mechanic because there’s no finite limit to how well you can execute it and it’s not easy to do well most of the time.

I guess I shouldn't have borrowed the term "relevant" to make my point. Basically as long as units have same speed it is fine and actually funny. E.g. last hit to kill vill with huss raiding or to kite cav in a more efficient way than just going straight back.
When it's cav pulling infantry or anything else it is not fine.

It’s actually relevant when it’s all the same type. You can shoot with the front row while the back row is walking and pull the skirms so they are effectively never wasting movement time to shoot.

Or the example above where I talk about forcing the long formation to push units ahead.

It’s a great mechanic because there’s no finite limit to how well you can execute it and it’s not easy to do well most of the time.

To be fair, you're not quite talking about the same thing everyone else is, even though it is also a result of the pull trick.

Actually we're talking mostly about formation manipulation which is fine and fun. Pull trick inherently implies one unit pulling another and often that's to break snare.

[deleted_user0]

I am. You can have 25 skirms walking and 10 shoot. Then right click them all again and the 10 behind will sprint to catch up.

It all falls under the same mechanic though each one is a different application

What I meant is that I'm pretty sure what you're describing is a mostly unknown application of the mechanic to basically everyone in this thread.

@deleted_user It's not really comparable at all to the crackshot ROF reset. This is something that you interact with every single game, intentionally or not. Even if I wanted to be against it, I can't stop myself from using it in game. The pull trick also affects every civ, whereas the crackshot cancelling affects only Euros + Iro.

I don't see any reason why we should be so against the pull trick. It feels like most of the people speaking against it are the same people who claim that AoE3 is a game that requires very little in the way of mechanics, and you want to reduce what little there is even further? That just makes no sense. You can say it's easy to do, but you're simply wrong about that lol. It is easy to do the most basic of pulls, but there are many other ways to use the mechanic that have barely even been explored by the majority of the community yet.

it doesnt affect every civ equally, and it doesnt require you to interact with it they way its used now every game, as it wasn't done as intensively and intentionally for a decade before. what h2o describes isnt that unknown actually, but i have less issue with it, because it doesnt involve making snare redundant. which is my biggest gripe with pull trick, especially in age 1, where it doesn't actually affect each civ equally, it affects civs with more than 1 scout, which are already advantaged in age1.

[Mitoe]

Doesn't really matter to be honest because you can always break snare with the 2nd scout anyway regardless of pull trick. Just block the enemy explorer. The only advantage the pull trick has over that in this situation is that you can pull with a low hp unit that would otherwise die if you tried to block.

[Garja]

"only"

[EAGLEMUT]

"Pull trick" is a core game mechanic, its removal would completely break the game, or change AoE3 into a different game, if you will. Is anyone seriously suggesting to do that? Sure, you may argue it can be "lame" at times, which you can argue about many other things as well. The fact is that removing pull trick would totally change how playing AoE3 feels in general, it seems to me not everyone realizes how major this change would be, even after I posted some videos showcasing potential behavior. "Pull trick" is not some edge case scenario, units are getting pulled around all the damn time, ever since 2005 when the game was released. You all are using "pull trick" in 100% of the matches you play, even if not intentionally.

[Garja]

Not removing but maybe finding a solution. Right now the bigger group pulls the smaller one. Maybe it's possible to make it that slower unit always pulls? (same speed, bigger group pulls).

[Dolan]

I doubt that pathing algos were put in editable XML files. They're probably in the game engine.

[Mitoe]

Not removing but maybe finding a solution. Right now the bigger group pulls the smaller one. Maybe it's possible to make it that slower unit always pulls? (same speed, bigger group pulls).

Some of us don't think there needs to be a solution, or at least not one so drastic.