Pull" Trick" discussion

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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:Doesn't really matter to be honest because you can always break snare with the 2nd scout anyway regardless of pull trick. Just block the enemy explorer. The only advantage the pull trick has over that in this situation is that you can pull with a low hp unit that would otherwise die if you tried to block.


ye, and thats a big deal. these things totally dont play out the same way and you know it. breaking with a 2nd scout means that scout can get snared, and if its low hp it will die, or otherwise will lose a lot of health. so you sacrifice one unit to save another that has more importance. thats totally legit. with pull trick you just save both while you shouldnt have been able to in that scenario. there's snare in the game for a reason.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Its much easier to break the snare with pull trick rather than blocking anyway
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

umeu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:Doesn't really matter to be honest because you can always break snare with the 2nd scout anyway regardless of pull trick. Just block the enemy explorer. The only advantage the pull trick has over that in this situation is that you can pull with a low hp unit that would otherwise die if you tried to block.


ye, and thats a big deal. these things totally dont play out the same way and you know it. breaking with a 2nd scout means that scout can get snared, and if its low hp it will die, or otherwise will lose a lot of health. so you sacrifice one unit to save another that has more importance. thats totally legit. with pull trick you just save both while you shouldnt have been able to in that scenario. there's snare in the game for a reason.

Sure there is, but that doesn't mean that there can't be any counterplay to snare in the game.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Yes, that counter play is don't get snared... or use the snare to slow down the other explorer to break free, or use a cow or scout etc. There are plenty of "legit" ways to do it. Anyway whatever.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

I just don't see why pull trick shouldn't be a "legit" way of doing it.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user »

ITT:

Players who abuse range/tech compositions defending trick.

Players who abuse low range compositions attacking trick.

Grow some originality, like Garja!

No, no abuse is right.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

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Post by Dolphincup »

It is crazy to me that people don't recognize the pull trick as the gold mine that it is. In any RTS you want there to be a very high skill ceiling in terms of micro. this is an especially pertinent issue in a slow-paced game like aoe3 where the movement rates and rates of fire are generally slow, and units are functionally linear. Imagine creating an RTS game in which you want competition to thrive. how would you go about raising that micro skill ceiling? it's actually insanely difficult to come up with mechanisms that introduce opportunities for players to maximize their micro apm with diminishing returns, and without laying extreme punishment on players who are too slow. but such a mechanisms are necessary so that the really, really good players can squeeze as much advantage into every engagement as possible, despite the effort it takes to gain the small advantages. such mechanisms help ensure the better player wins. Such mechanisms had sc2 players returning to broodwar.

A few cases where the pull trick is a little too convenient is a small price to pay for the type of mechanic that sets great games apart from good games. IMO, It should be celebrated. Sure some civs can utilize it better in the discovery age. Is it reflected in those civs' win rates? if not then I don't see a problem. If it's OP with indian elephant explorers, just nerf the discovery HP. There are more constructive ways to complain.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user »

It comes down to the mele mechanic and how much it snares.

I like the mele mechanic in AoE3, but sc2 doesn't have it. Sc2 is the best mechanical RTS, right? I don't like the mele mechanic in AoEO.

Honestly, aoe3 does a lot of things (un)intentionally great. It's kind of amazing EP has made it balanced. Or maybe I like that there's just not the player base to expose the worst parts. I like it a lot. Pull trick feels like what was missing in high level. A little optimization never hurt.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Mitoe wrote:I just don't see why pull trick shouldn't be a "legit" way of doing it.


For the same reason machinegun crackshot
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

I really don't think that's comparable lol
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It's the same thing to me.
I like the machinegun crackshot mechanic because it requires apm and it doesn't really break the game. Pull trick is more relevant and requires less skill.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yeah machine gun hero is the same level as abuse as the skill trick
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:It's the same thing to me.
I like the machinegun crackshot mechanic because it requires apm and it doesn't really break the game. Pull trick is more relevant and requires less skill.

It definitely does not require less skill. Only the most basic pulls do.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:It's the same thing to me.
I like the machinegun crackshot mechanic because it requires apm and it doesn't really break the game. Pull trick is more relevant and requires less skill.

It definitely does not require less skill. Only the most basic pulls do.

Maybe it requires more "practice" (and actually I'm not even sure), but it surely requires less APM. And with machinegun crackshot you'll get treasures faster, and maybe kill one or two extra units, with pull trick you can sometimes save more than 10 units.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Mitoe »

You're just delusional if you think that crackshot cancelling takes more skill than using the pull trick to its full potential, to be honest. I doubt you even realize how high the skill cap really is for it.

APM ≠ skill

They are different things entirely.

The only thing about crackshot cancelling that could be called skillful is the precision of your clicks--the rest is simply how quickly you can repeat the action. The pull trick--at least more advanced ones than the basic pull--requires more finesse and thought and must be executed pretty quickly in order to be most effective.

Go into the scenario editor and try to pull 30 skirms with 13 huss or something, then tell me whether or not the mechanic is worthwhile and whether or not it is easy to pull off effectively in situations that are actually relevant to real games.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

pull trick is an implicit motion that will be activated unintentionally in every single game though - it’s completely organic. you might never discover the machinegun hero glitch even after playing thousands of online games. they’re really not comparable
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Mitoe wrote:I just don't see why pull trick shouldn't be a "legit" way of doing it.

Because game is based on snare not being outplayed by pull trick. And pull trick play is goofy itself.
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe wrote:Go into the scenario editor and try to pull 30 skirms with 13 huss or something, then tell me whether or not the mechanic is worthwhile and whether or not it is easy to pull off effectively in situations that are actually relevant to real games.

Yeah I mean, people who say the pull trick is easy don't even know this is possible. It's actually really hard to do
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Ye and when it's the opposite is super easy tho. Does it matter if it is easy or not anway
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Hazza54321 »

I really dont think its that hard
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

The skill ceiling for the pull trick is extremely high
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Ive never failed at it once
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Cometk »

Goodspeed wrote:Ive never failed at it once

Try with 13 Huss and 30 skirms, better yet abusing that to the maximum in a real game.

edit: i actually got up and out of bed to playtest that
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah, can't fail if you don't try.
Ez tho
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Re: Pull" Trick" discussion

Post by Garja »

Cometk wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Ive never failed at it once

Try with 13 Huss and 30 skirms, better yet abusing that to the maximum in a real game.

edit: i actually got up and out of bed to playtest that

why in hell should it even be a thing to pull skirms with huss
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