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Canada Mitoe
ESOC Media Team
EWTNWC LAN Top 8
Posts: 4103
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

30 May 2019, 07:02

That's true, but pulling cavalry with infantry is only for a short distance, and you sacrifice the damage of your ranged infantry to do it as well.
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United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 3232
ESO: n0eL

30 May 2019, 11:21

umeu wrote:
_H2O wrote:Alt d is just shitty for the game and obviously so. We should add one button where you can also revive your cav that dies and then pretend that’s a good idea.


Its shitty for the game cuz it denies the purpose of an existing core mechanic, and makes it pointless to try and kill enemy explorers. In age1 the pull trick actually has the exact same effect, it denies snare and thus actually makes it pointless to chase down the enemy scout. Not to mention that it can be used to steal treasures you wouldn't otherwise get, which is comparable to machinegun crackshot. I think the comparison with both exploits is very much warranted. The argument of whats good for the game and what isnt is very much subjective and any claim to objectivity derives from authority, an argument you said to dislike.

Using that logic then melee timing to break a snare and losing your hero intentionally to gaia are also the same. It’s just not.
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Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 740
ESO: HUMMAN

30 May 2019, 11:40

Well i thinks its good falcs get buffed by pull trick since they are relatively unpopular. And its quite exciting to see these moves. However for other classes, as mentioned, melee units are disfavored by pull trick which were already weak. I agree it's a cool mechanic and makes game more interesting, but it may need some balance stuff. Maybe drop max speed(pull speed) to regular speed while being snared. From agressor's point i cant see how pull trick can give an advantage while it helps to escape.
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Austria supahons
Dragoon
Posts: 336
ESO: supahons

30 May 2019, 11:46

mandatory: pulltrick - part of the core game mechanic (https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 25#p349731). Read this then propose balance changes.

optional: You don't have to use it.
alt+d, crackshot-trick
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France Kaiserklein
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NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7245
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

30 May 2019, 12:08

HUMMAN wrote:Well i thinks its good falcs get buffed by pull trick since they are relatively unpopular. And its quite exciting to see these moves. However for other classes, as mentioned, melee units are disfavored by pull trick which were already weak. I agree it's a cool mechanic and makes game more interesting, but it may need some balance stuff. Maybe drop max speed(pull speed) to regular speed while being snared.

We can't change the mechanic. It's simply not possible, according to eaglemut.
I personally believe the pull trick is too powerful and should be nerfed a bit, but since we can't do it, this debate is getting really stale.

HUMMAN wrote:From agressor's point i cant see how pull trick can give an advantage while it helps to escape.

You can pull slower units accross the map for example. You can also, in a fight, pull your melee units so that they run forward faster and get on top of your opponent's stuff. Plus pull trick allows you to be more aggressive with your ranged units (typically skirms) because you can quickly pull them back in case you feel like you're gonna overcommit. So yeah, it also helps the aggressor a lot.
Micro tricks

LoOk_tOm: I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
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Posts: 7557
ESO: Garja

30 May 2019, 12:12

n0el wrote:Using that logic then melee timing to break a snare and losing your hero intentionally to gaia are also the same. It’s just not.

No at all the same logic.
No Flag umeu
Gendarme
Posts: 9999

30 May 2019, 12:52

n0el wrote:
umeu wrote:
_H2O wrote:Alt d is just shitty for the game and obviously so. We should add one button where you can also revive your cav that dies and then pretend that’s a good idea.


Its shitty for the game cuz it denies the purpose of an existing core mechanic, and makes it pointless to try and kill enemy explorers. In age1 the pull trick actually has the exact same effect, it denies snare and thus actually makes it pointless to chase down the enemy scout. Not to mention that it can be used to steal treasures you wouldn't otherwise get, which is comparable to machinegun crackshot. I think the comparison with both exploits is very much warranted. The argument of whats good for the game and what isnt is very much subjective and any claim to objectivity derives from authority, an argument you said to dislike.

Using that logic then melee timing to break a snare and losing your hero intentionally to gaia are also the same. It’s just not.


No, countersnaring is totally fine. Shooting a tres to lose it to gaia could potentially be filed in there, but its not really the same. It's more akin to deleting agra to avoid aztec getting 3x bonus
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Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7557
ESO: Garja

30 May 2019, 14:07

Dying to gaia is part of the game, completely intended and consistent with explorer ransom. It's only a 2nd worse option anyway so it's fine.
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Brazil macacoalbino
Howdah
Posts: 1077
ESO: Chumbo_Grosso_

30 May 2019, 19:08

Hazza54321 wrote:Ive pulled tricked to steal food treasures, save herding vills and to kite way more easily in pretty much everygame and it feels stupid everytime. Also teleported my hero across the map pulling him with the nat scout age 1. Kaiser pull tricked 5 fucking cannons. Mitoe pulled tricked to steal cdb treasures. pretty sure that sort of shit is more impactful than alt d.

I read a long time ago, so I'm not so sure about this. I think the skirm speed from nilla was nerfed exactly because it was a bit too easy for you to kite musketeer type units with them. Now we found a way to overcome the nerf. So here's another consideration as to why the mechanic is op.
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No hacks just (lack of) skillz

twitch.tv/chumbo_grosso_
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India rsy
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1581
ESO: Rsy
Location: USA
GameRanger ID: 665696

30 May 2019, 19:13

Garja wrote:Dying to gaia is part of the game, completely intended and consistent with explorer ransom. It's only a 2nd worse option anyway so it's fine.

Lmao the first time I read this I read garja in place of gaia. And u know what it would still have made almost perfect sense
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Taiwan Vinyanyérë
ESOC Community Team
Donator 06
Posts: 1113
ESO: duolckrad, Kuvira
Location: California, U.S.

30 May 2019, 20:44

Pull trick is an unintended consequence of design. Alt-d is an unintended consequence of implementation. That makes the differences between them not just a question of their quantitative effects on how the game plays out; they're qualitatively different.

There's no way to remove pull trick without a Repeal and Replace - it's a consequence of seemingly reasonable design decisions about how units selected together should move. Removing pull trick means reworking how units move.

Alt-d is easy to Repeal without Replacing. It’s a transition from "you can do this" to "you can’t do this", but "you can’t do this" doesn't raise any new questions about how other things might work.

I know less about the crackshot trick but I suspect it's in the same category as alt-d.
duck
Vinyanyérë
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United States of America _H2O
Retired Contributor
Donator 06
Posts: 3262

30 May 2019, 20:51

Yeah this is why you have to make a judgement call in a sense on what is good for the game. It’s very difficult to make these calls.

Also the idea of intended mechanics to increase APM and micro feels very empty to me. I feel like sc2 is a prime example of this. Every apm based mechanic feels too intentionally designed. It takes much of the art out of things. There is something beautiful about an unintended mechanic evolving organically that I can’t describe properly. The pull trick is one of those.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7497

30 May 2019, 20:58

People don't seem to agree on whether it's good or bad for the game. Should probably table it until it gets used more and the impact on the meta becomes apparent. That might sway the collective community one way or another.
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United States of America GiBthedurrty
Dragoon
Donator 01
Posts: 444
ESO: [YumiW]-GiBthedurrty

30 May 2019, 21:30

pull trick xD
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 7264

30 May 2019, 21:45

Vinyanyérë wrote:
Alt-d is easy to Repeal without Replacing.


Is Alt+d removed from the patch?
There's sand in my teeth
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Czech Republic EAGLEMUT
ESOC Dev Team
Donator 05
Posts: 3453
ESO: EAGLEMUT
Location: [WPact]

30 May 2019, 21:48

The alt-d glitch is fixed on current EP 6.1 Beta.
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momuuu wrote:theres no way eaglemut is truly a top player
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No Flag fightinfrenchman
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 7264

30 May 2019, 21:52

Hmm not a fan of that
There's sand in my teeth
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Kiribati SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 7911
ESO: KTRAlN
Location: Midwest best west

31 May 2019, 05:25

Aoe just became one dimensional
and the giving famishes the craving
sweet thames, run softly, til I end my song

The shepherd's staff's tantalus around my neck

let the water
touch the tongue

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