Fixed and mirrored maps

[lemmings121]

What are people thoughts on this?

While in aoe we are used to random spawns, other games have fixed and mirroed ones, Looking at startcraft: the map is even revealed, you only have the 'fog of war', and scounting for resources is not needed (it would be just memorization of a fixed map).

Is random maps really better? worse? why?

[zoom]

Garja

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's of course worse because unfair.

[pecelot]

I guess hunts can't really be mirrored because they move

[yoqpasa]

I would like a mirrored map being different every game

[91]

If maps are fixed I think it's better to have the map already explored because I rather favor adaption skills over memory. I kind of dislike the fact that you can go straight into the fog to build a TP or get a good treasure just because you played the map before (this is already the case anyway). Personally I wouldn't mind fixed maps, but I think I would miss scouting treasures... Maybe a fixed, unexplored map with treasures (somewhat) randomly placed.

By the way I don't think aoe3 maps are random enough to bring a lot of value from the randomness at the moment, apart from treasures and the moment of satisfaction when you scouted 100%.

Personally I'd rather see maps that are WAY more random, kind of like unknown, maybe even serious lack of resources sometimes, or only one area with a lot of resources. That would really force you to adapt your strategy by what you scout, and less already-planned builds.

[lemmings121]

I really dislike some random stuff, like you are playing in a MU that you have to be defensive, and the map randomly decided that your starting gold mine is front of the tc. It just makes defending harder for no reason.
Even treasures, I like that they bring variety and small diferences in the BOs and timmings from game to game, but i really dislike that sometimes the enemy will get 95w super easy, and you get 2sheep.

[Gendarme]

Let's return revamp AoE3 to its former a future glory! Let's call it AoE3:DE AoE IV!

[deleted_user0]

I guess hunts can't really be mirrored because they move

I fucking hate that about tad lol u send lakota herds, and then 1 min later theyre like at half map. And ofc u cant herd lmao. Somehow they always walk off in any direction except behind tc

[Garja]

I really dislike some random stuff, like you are playing in a MU that you have to be defensive, and the map randomly decided that your starting gold mine is front of the tc. It just makes defending harder for no reason.
Even treasures, I like that they bring variety and small diferences in the BOs and timmings from game to game, but i really dislike that sometimes the enemy will get 95w super easy, and you get 2sheep.

Change game?

[momuuu]

There is an idea that fixed maps make the game boring; the randomness of the map forces us to adapt and enter different scenarios and play around where the hunts are. That's the theory. The practice is that the game is still repetitive but now you'll occasionally be favored because of the map and occasionally be screwed over. It doesn't really add much to the gameplay. I guess age 1 gameplay couldn't really work with a fully revealed map but honestly age 1 gameplay is uninteresting anyways.

[Gendarme]

Honestly, Age of Empires 3 is just a little shitty fucking piece-of-shit game.

[Kaiserklein]

Age 1 gameplay is uninteresting to people who don't understand it.

On topic, yes random maps are a bit unfair. But by that logic you should fix starting crates, fix treasures, fix resources, and remove 11 civs to have starcraft level of balance. That's not aoe3 anymore.
A nice alternative would be random and symmetrical maps, or randomly picking 1 spawn out of a set of 50 good spawns. Sadly I think that's technically really hard to do

[momuuu]

Age 1 gameplay is uninteresting to people who don't understand it.

What a load of bullshit. Age 1 gameplay is unintersting to people who dislike that sort of gameplay, which is also possible if you fully understand it. If I wanted to effectively move one unit around the map trying to get treasures/loot from the map, I'd play LoL/Dota. I don't play those games because I find it boring, I want to play strategically oriented games with actual build orders and micro larger armies. I don't want to play age 1, I want to play everything that comes after it. Having to waste 5 minutes on very low action gameplay that has very few elements to it isn't good design. Some may like it but I'd say it's objectively bad game design to dillute your actual gameplay content with a 5 minute long loading screen.

On topic, yes random maps are a bit unfair. But by that logic you should fix starting crates, fix treasures, fix resources, and remove 11 civs to have starcraft level of balance. That's not aoe3 anymore.
A nice alternative would be random and symmetrical maps, or randomly picking 1 spawn out of a set of 50 good spawns. Sadly I think that's technically really hard to do

So aoe3 is defined by random factors winning/losing you games? That sounds somewhat incorrect. Aoe3 is defined by how resources work and are gathered and how you can send shipments. It's not defined by random luck factors.

The alternative should be entirely possible right? I'd assume the seed for the map is set somewhere in the mapfile's script at least, or can somehow be manipulated in the map script.

[Garja]

Aoe3 is defined by random factors which you have to take into consideration and play around it. And they don't necessarily win or lose you games.

[pecelot]

we could make turbo random maps like in AoE2

[Garja]

what's turbo random map

[EAGLEMUT]

The alternative should be entirely possible right? I'd assume the seed for the map is set somewhere in the mapfile's script at least, or can somehow be manipulated in the map script.

Actually, I haven't found a way to do that, though there might be a way. In a regular random map script, you currently don't and can't affect the seed in any way (so the most you can do is just hardcode the map to not be random at all with your own logic). I could test whether aiRandSetSeed() affects map generation in any way.

what's turbo random map

It's a game mode featured in previous Age games that works like a lesser "speed always wins" cheat, basically. https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Turbo_Random_Map

[Kaiserklein]

Age 1 gameplay is uninteresting to people who don't understand it.

What a load of bullshit. Age 1 gameplay is unintersting to people who dislike that sort of gameplay, which is also possible if you fully understand it. If I wanted to effectively move one unit around the map trying to get treasures/loot from the map, I'd play LoL/Dota. I don't play those games because I find it boring, I want to play strategically oriented games with actual build orders and micro larger armies. I don't want to play age 1, I want to play everything that comes after it. Having to waste 5 minutes on very low action gameplay that has very few elements to it isn't good design. Some may like it but I'd say it's objectively bad game design to dillute your actual gameplay content with a 5 minute long loading screen.

Yeah that's what I said, you don't understand it. As in, you call it a "loading screen". That means you didn't understand the skill involved in age 1 (like a lot of other people, to be fair). So considering that, I can't take your argument seriously.

Always so funny to see people say age 1 is useless, while in fact most people age up late, idle their tc, don't know how to fight with explos/scouts in age 1, don't know how to properly micro treasures, don't know how to properly scout the map, don't know how to macro perfectly in age 1, and so on.

On topic, yes random maps are a bit unfair. But by that logic you should fix starting crates, fix treasures, fix resources, and remove 11 civs to have starcraft level of balance. That's not aoe3 anymore.
A nice alternative would be random and symmetrical maps, or randomly picking 1 spawn out of a set of 50 good spawns. Sadly I think that's technically really hard to do

So aoe3 is defined by random factors winning/losing you games? That sounds somewhat incorrect. Aoe3 is defined by how resources work and are gathered and how you can send shipments. It's not defined by random luck factors.

The alternative should be entirely possible right? I'd assume the seed for the map is set somewhere in the mapfile's script at least, or can somehow be manipulated in the map script.

No one said that's how aoe3 is "defined". However, randomness is obviously part of the design of the game. Otherwise, I'd like to understand why they decided to have random crates starts, random map spawns, and 14 civs which are obviously never gonna be perfectly balanced. They most likely decided that having something fun and not 100% fixed is more important than having always the same stuff, while in sc2 they decided to do the opposite. If you're not happy about that aoe mentality, you can also go play sc2 instead. But don't try to turn aoe into sc2.

[Hazza54321]

what's turbo random map

turbotabias

[GiBthedurrty]

tabben makes me tabben

[momuuu]

Age 1 gameplay is uninteresting to people who don't understand it.

What a load of bullshit. Age 1 gameplay is unintersting to people who dislike that sort of gameplay, which is also possible if you fully understand it. If I wanted to effectively move one unit around the map trying to get treasures/loot from the map, I'd play LoL/Dota. I don't play those games because I find it boring, I want to play strategically oriented games with actual build orders and micro larger armies. I don't want to play age 1, I want to play everything that comes after it. Having to waste 5 minutes on very low action gameplay that has very few elements to it isn't good design. Some may like it but I'd say it's objectively bad game design to dillute your actual gameplay content with a 5 minute long loading screen.

Yeah that's what I said, you don't understand it. As in, you call it a "loading screen". That means you didn't understand the skill involved in age 1 (like a lot of other people, to be fair). So considering that, I can't take your argument seriously.

Always so funny to see people say age 1 is useless, while in fact most people age up late, idle their tc, don't know how to fight with explos/scouts in age 1, don't know how to properly micro treasures, don't know how to properly scout the map, don't know how to macro perfectly in age 1, and so on.

Nice to see your reading skills aren't up to the task of understanding a post of someone. Also nice to see that you deal with that by insulting someone and then ranting about something unrelated. I dont get how you can produce such a pile of crap. Just a little hint: I never said anything about skill, I just called it boring. Theres skill in trying to throw rocks at specific spots yet I dont find myself sitting outside mindlessly throwing rocks around because thatd be fucking boring. Just like age 1 in aoe3 is boring to me. Age 1 in aoe3 is like a very dumbed down moba minigame, I dont see why Id want to play that.

On topic, yes random maps are a bit unfair. But by that logic you should fix starting crates, fix treasures, fix resources, and remove 11 civs to have starcraft level of balance. That's not aoe3 anymore.
A nice alternative would be random and symmetrical maps, or randomly picking 1 spawn out of a set of 50 good spawns. Sadly I think that's technically really hard to do

So aoe3 is defined by random factors winning/losing you games? That sounds somewhat incorrect. Aoe3 is defined by how resources work and are gathered and how you can send shipments. It's not defined by random luck factors.

The alternative should be entirely possible right? I'd assume the seed for the map is set somewhere in the mapfile's script at least, or can somehow be manipulated in the map script.

No one said that's how aoe3 is "defined". However, randomness is obviously part of the design of the game. Otherwise, I'd like to understand why they decided to have random crates starts, random map spawns, and 14 civs which are obviously never gonna be perfectly balanced. They most likely decided that having something fun and not 100% fixed is more important than having always the same stuff, while in sc2 they decided to do the opposite. If you're not happy about that aoe mentality, you can also go play sc2 instead. But don't try to turn aoe into sc2.

First of all, I never tried to turn aoe into sc2, dont misrepresent what Im saying. Also, this entire argument you are presenting is absolutely ridiculous. Aoe3 is designed in some way. That doesnt mean that the way its designed is perfect. It also doesnt mean that criticizing aoe3 for some things means you're completely disliking the mentality and that you should play sc2 instead. Anyone with a functioning brain would see that reducing/removing randomness doesnt turn aoe3 into sc2 or anything even close to sc2.

You should also get off your high horse. You cant attack people for having criticism on some aspects of a game, especially when those people actually provide arguments for their criticism rather than provide ad hominem arguments.

[gh0st]

Whats up with jerom these days? Not like i miss the old one, but still....

[Kaiserklein]

Nice to see your reading skills aren't up to the task of understanding a post of someone. Also nice to see that you deal with that by insulting someone and then ranting about something unrelated. I dont get how you can produce such a pile of crap. Just a little hint: I never said anything about skill, I just called it boring. Theres skill in trying to throw rocks at specific spots yet I dont find myself sitting outside mindlessly throwing rocks around because thatd be fucking boring. Just like age 1 in aoe3 is boring to me. Age 1 in aoe3 is like a very dumbed down moba minigame, I dont see why Id want to play that.

Please quote where I insulted you... Meanwhile, you're saying I'm too retarded to read, and you call what I type "bullshit" or a "pile of crap". As usual, you're just aggressive because someone disagrees with you.
You decided that "age 1 is uninteresting", which is pretty different from saying "imo age 1 is boring". So maybe you should phrase yourself properly next time, if you want a proper answer. Cause in my opinion, age 1 is interesting since it displays skill from the players and setups the game (I have builds that rely on age 1 to work, for example).

First of all, I never tried to turn aoe into sc2, dont misrepresent what Im saying. Also, this entire argument you are presenting is absolutely ridiculous. Aoe3 is designed in some way. That doesnt mean that the way its designed is perfect. It also doesnt mean that criticizing aoe3 for some things means you're completely disliking the mentality and that you should play sc2 instead. Anyone with a functioning brain would see that reducing/removing randomness doesnt turn aoe3 into sc2 or anything even close to sc2.

Dude, you're constantly criticizing everything related to aoe3. I swear I can't remember you actually posting something positive on these forums, when it comes to aoe3 related stuff (besides when they made banks cost 300w I guess?). You're the stereotype of the dude who doesn't play the game, doesn't contribute in any way to anything (at least not since years), but for some reason keeps tearing everyone's nuts by constantly bashing the game and its community (casters are bad, maps are bad, age 1 is bad, patch is bad, esoc policy towards glitches is bad, basement is bad and meanies, and so on).
About the sc2 thing, I was exaggerating to make my point. But essentially, having the whole map revealed at start is totally not aoe-like (it even means we'd basically have to remove treasures), just like fixed resources. That is sc2-like. And aoe is far from being a perfect game, so what? We're not trying to make a new game here.

You should also get off your high horse. You cant attack people for having criticism on some aspects of a game, especially when those people actually provide arguments for their criticism rather than provide ad hominem arguments.

This is the biggest joke. You're acting again as a victim here, claiming that I "attacked" you, while you actually started being aggressive. Probably just cause I said that you don't understand age 1, which is not even a flame, but a fact, because only someone who didn't understand how age 1 mechanics work would call it "uninteresting". But of course your ego got hurt badly so you had to flame me.
And if anything, I'm providing arguments of why I think age 1 is interesting, while you're just saying it's shit without any explanation. Maybe the way I expressed myself sounded condescending, and I can understand if that's annoying. But honestly you're just worse, and what sucks is you don't have anything to justify your arrogance because you don't play the game and you don't know jack about it.

I'm probably just gonna stop answering you now cause I don't wanna get into one of these ridiculous arguments like you have with Garja.

[Kaiserklein]

Whats up with jerom these days? Not like i miss the old one, but still....

He was like that ever since he left ESOC staff, afaik