Question about bonuses "gather faster"

[SNake38]

Hello everybody,

I would like to know something.

Some bonuses say "settlers collect x % faster the food/wood/coins" : i'm thinking about the bonuses in the market or in the capitol for exemple.
Let's take this exemple :

The settlers collect wood 50% faster

But what is the correct effect ?

a) They collect the wood 50 % faster ; so the trees die twice faster too
or
b) They win 50 % bonus of wood for each unit of wood cutted ; so the trees don't die faster (it's just the gathering effect which increase)

Excuse my godamn english traduction, i hope you understand all my question. :)

[edeholland]

The gathering rate increases, so the tree dies faster. It's 50% added to the base gathering rate, btw. So in this case, it's 0.5w/s + 50% = 0.75w/s gathered from the tree.

The only way you can "yield" more resources from an object is with India. They gather 50% more wood from each tree, meaning a tree with 300 wood will give them 450 wood. This is just because they need more wood than usual and it would otherwise be hard to survive with only a few trees close to your base.

[Interjection]

Detective Ede solves another open & close case

All in a day's work.

[Major_dark]

Yo
When you gather 50 % faster, trees will die 1.5 * faster too !
When you upgrade food in market : you gather 1* 1.1 (1st upgrade of 10%) * 1.25 (2nd upgrade of 25%) : 1.375
Herds will die 1.375 time faster
But don't worry in age of we dont care about sustainable development =P

[Gendarme]

Detective Ede

That is what he wants you to believe he is. He is actually a consigliere.

[Kaiserklein]

When you upgrade food in market : you gather 1* 1.1 (1st upgrade of 10%) * 1.25 (2nd upgrade of 25%) : 1.375
Herds will die 1.375 time faster

Actually this kind of upgrades is additive, not multiplicative. So it's 10% + 20% (and not 25% btw), so herds will deplete 1.3 times faster.

But don't worry in age of we dont care about sustainable development =P

You'll start caring when you run out of hunts :p

[ChewSick]

Actually this kind of upgrades is additive, not multiplicative. So it's 10% + 20% (and not 25% btw), so herds will deplete 1.3 times faster.

thinking about it, every additional upgrade is getting weaker percentage-wise.

A Guard upgrade that gives you 10% bonus HP and damage is actually only worth 6.67% in age IV, and only 5% in age V.

[Gendarme]

Only auras (e.g. Karni Mata, Daimyo) scale off current stats, I think.

[edeholland]

Only auras (e.g. Karni Mata, Daimyo) scale off current stats, I think.

Do you know if treasures do?

[Gendarme]

No, but my guess would be no. I am sure treaty players know.

[Kaiserklein]

@chusik yes, upgrades are more impactful early on, obviously. That's why cav combat is so good on cuirs in mid game, because it's actually a real 15% hp/attack boost.

Treasure boosts used to be multiplicative on nilla, but not anymore on tad.

[edeholland]

Treasure boosts used to be multiplicative on nilla, but not anymore on tad.

That's interesting. So what is the new top speed for a Sioux hero or Coureur the bois with the boots of guacamole treasure? And how many treasure for faster cav training treasures do you need to get instant cav?

[princeofkabul]

Actually this kind of upgrades is additive, not multiplicative. So it's 10% + 20% (and not 25% btw), so herds will deplete 1.3 times faster.

thinking about it, every additional upgrade is getting weaker percentage-wise.

A Guard upgrade that gives you 10% bonus HP and damage is actually only worth 6.67% in age IV, and only 5% in age V.

All royal upgrades gives you 40%. Eg Uhlan royal upgrade displays 10% for some reason but I believe it is a bug and I tested long ago with somppu.

[EAGLEMUT]

Actually this kind of upgrades is additive, not multiplicative. So it's 10% + 20% (and not 25% btw), so herds will deplete 1.3 times faster.

thinking about it, every additional upgrade is getting weaker percentage-wise.

A Guard upgrade that gives you 10% bonus HP and damage is actually only worth 6.67% in age IV, and only 5% in age V.

All guard/ royal upgrades gives you 40%. Eg Uhlan royal upgrade displays 10% for some reason but I believe it is a bug and I tested long ago with somppu.

Yeah, the detailed description of royal guard upgrades is bugged, because they internally activate the regular guard upgrade + put another 10% on top of that, which is the only thing displayed to the user. It would be possible to fix, but not entirely easy - the stat upgrades would need to be merged into royal guard instead of activating regular guard and some other places in the game files would need to be updated to account for that (eg. updating unit art based on techs).

[momuuu]

Only auras (e.g. Karni Mata, Daimyo) scale off current stats, I think.

I think most importantly the Golden Pavilion is an aura. That's why Japan seems to scale so insanely well into the lategame.

[duckzilla]

Only auras (e.g. Karni Mata, Daimyo) scale off current stats, I think.

I think most importantly the Golden Pavilion is an aura. That's why Japan seems to scale so insanely well into the lategame.

I could be wrong, but I think the Daimyo/Shogun bonuses are auras as well, making Japan even scarier. In total, the late-game stats can be boosted by +25% dmg (Golden Pavillon 15% + Daimyo 10%) and +20% (Shogun).

A fully upped Imperial Ashigaru has the stats 56dmg/390hp. With all auras, this changes to 70dmg/468hp. This is comparable to an upgrade card which yields +58% dmg and +45% hp.

Ashigarus cost 80f/40c, which is roughly 25% more than a musketeer in vill seconds. Since a fully upped Imperial Red Coat has the stats 58dmg/382hp, british and portuguese muskets are far more cost efficient as long as there are no auras. Boosting Ashigarus with all aura bonuses makes them both more cost efficient and (much) more pop efficient than brit/port musks.

Further, there is another aura bonus (10%) in the consulate when choosing Isolation.

[Kaiserklein]

Treasure boosts used to be multiplicative on nilla, but not anymore on tad.

That's interesting. So what is the new top speed for a Sioux hero or Coureur the bois with the boots of guacamole treasure? And how many treasure for faster cav training treasures do you need to get instant cav?

Well like I said it's just additive. Each speed treasure is gonna add 25% speed, if you take 4 of them you get an extra 100% speed. Doesn't matter what unit it applies on. The sioux warchief will however get an extra 15% from its own aura which does multiply with this treasure, so for example with two speed treasures, it will get 6.75*(1+0.25+0.25)*1.15.
For 10% training time of cav it's the same. You need 10 of them to get instant cav. Or if you already got riding school, 6 of them for the missing 60%.

All royal upgrades gives you 40%. Eg Uhlan royal upgrade displays 10% for some reason but I believe it is a bug and I tested long ago with somppu.

Yea I think he was talking about the extra 10% compared to the regular guard upgrades. As in, you're actually paying an extra 400w 400g for only 6.67% more hp and attack in age IV.

[momuuu]

Only auras (e.g. Karni Mata, Daimyo) scale off current stats, I think.

I think most importantly the Golden Pavilion is an aura. That's why Japan seems to scale so insanely well into the lategame.

I could be wrong, but I think the Daimyo/Shogun bonuses are auras as well, making Japan even scarier. In total, the late-game stats can be boosted by +25% dmg (Golden Pavillon 15% + Daimyo 10%) and +20% (Shogun).

A fully upped Imperial Ashigaru has the stats 56dmg/390hp. With all auras, this changes to 70dmg/468hp. This is comparable to an upgrade card which yields +58% dmg and +45% hp.

Ashigarus cost 80f/40c, which is roughly 25% more than a musketeer in vill seconds. Since a fully upped Imperial Red Coat has the stats 58dmg/382hp, british and portuguese muskets are far more cost efficient as long as there are no auras. Boosting Ashigarus with all aura bonuses makes them both more cost efficient and (much) more pop efficient than brit/port musks.

Further, there is another aura bonus (10%) in the consulate when choosing Isolation.

I dont think this can be right? 3 daimyos + pavilion should then be 55% of base stats if there was no aura scaling. Actually, maybe only the golden pavilion is an aura?

[Kaiserklein]

I could be wrong, but I think the Daimyo/Shogun bonuses are auras as well, making Japan even scarier. In total, the late-game stats can be boosted by +25% dmg (Golden Pavillon 15% + Daimyo 10%) and +20% (Shogun).

A fully upped Imperial Ashigaru has the stats 56dmg/390hp. With all auras, this changes to 70dmg/468hp. This is comparable to an upgrade card which yields +58% dmg and +45% hp.

Ashigarus cost 80f/40c, which is roughly 25% more than a musketeer in vill seconds. Since a fully upped Imperial Red Coat has the stats 58dmg/382hp, british and portuguese muskets are far more cost efficient as long as there are no auras. Boosting Ashigarus with all aura bonuses makes them both more cost efficient and (much) more pop efficient than brit/port musks.

Further, there is another aura bonus (10%) in the consulate when choosing Isolation.

That sounds correct, except that iirc the japanese isolation isn't an aura (same as brit consulate hp boost) so it's additive, and it's just 5%, not 10.

[dansil92]

Attack dance is multiplicative as well (that's how Erks get so powerful late game because the knight attack cards can stack eg. 15% x 1.38)- does anyone know for sure if the karni mata is additive or multiplicative?

[momuuu]

Aah, I was mistaken about @duckzilla stats. I thought he assumed that there were 3 daimyo's in play. I believe with 3 Daimyo's you should be getting to 77 attack. Let's just calculate it.

The list of upgrades to Ashigarus are:
- Veteran (20% attack)
- Guard (30% attack)
- Imperial (50%)
- Ashi combat card (15%)
- Paper Cardridge (15%)
- Japanese Isolation (5%)
- 3 Daimyos (10% each)
- Shogun (20%)
- Golden Pavilion (15%)

Ashigarus have a base attack of 24. If all of these upgrades scaled from base stats, the Ashigarus should get a 200% boost in attack, so they should go up to 48 attack. However, I believe the daimyos, shogun and pavilion scale off of base stats. Then, they should get a 1.35*1.10^3*1.15*1.2 ~= 2.91 bonus to attack and they should go up to ~70 attack. I believe I either misremember the attack value thats possible on RE or that I am not remembering some upgrade that Japan does have. I definitely recall it going above 70. Maybe 77 attack was the 10% isolation stat.

If Japanese isolation would also be an aura, we should get 1.3*1.1^3*1.15*1.2*1.05 = 2.94 multiplier, resulting in 71 attack. In previous versions of RE this was 10%, and that would give 74 attack. These are also not numbers I recall, although 1.1 does seem accurate. Maybe they had 26 attack rather than 24 (I found something indicating that. Then the number would be 80 attack. Still not a number I quite recall. Someone needs to test this.

EDIT: These results are garbage!

[yemshi]

You cannot be boosted by more than one daimyo.

[EAGLEMUT]

Auras are what you see represented as circles around the units, and those scale off current stats rather than base stats - that's why teepee stacking can be quite strong, for example. The daimyo auras are special in that they do not stack with each other.

[momuuu]

I've tested it. These are my results:

0) Ashigaru base attack: 24
1) With one Daimyo: 26
2) With Veteran: 28
3) With Veteran and Daimyo: 31
4) With guard: 36
5) with guard and daimyo: 39


1) 24*1.1 = 26.4, it's rounded down for the daimyo.
2) 24*1.2 = 28.8. I don't know why it is being rounded down to 28, but I guess it will always be rounded down then
3) It's unclear if it's base stats or not:
24*1.3 = 31.2, rounded down this shuld stay 31
24*1.2*1.1= 31.68, should still stay at 31
4) 24*1.5 = 36
5)
24*1.6 = 38.4 round down to 38 if the daimyo scaled off base stats
24*1.5*1.1 = 39.7, rounded down to 39. So the daimyo doesn't scale off base stats!

Now lets add the Golden Pavilion to the equation:
24 base goes to 27. So the Pavilion is a 15% boost.
At veteran, we find 33 attack. If it scales of base stats we should find 24*1.35 = 32.4, and for aura scaling we should find 24*1.2*1.15 = 33.12. So the pavilion also scales from base stats.

now for Japanese isolation
24 attack goes to 25 attack, as should happen with a 5% increase. With the veteran upgrade we find 30 attack. Both scaling of base stats and aura scaling give this number. With the guard upgrade we find 37. Base scaling should give 37.2 and aura scaling should give 37.8. We still cant tell. With the imperial upgrade we find 49 attack. This is consistent with the consulate scaling off of base stats.

With all upgrades we find 71 attack. I realize I have been a dummy in the previous post and that should be removed lol. 71 attack is achieved as follows:
24*(1+0.2+0.3+0.5+0.15+0.15+0.05) (these represent 1 for base value, veteran, guard, imperial, cardridge upgrade, ashigaru attack, japanese isolation) * 1.1 (daimyo) *1.15 (pavilion) = 71.346

The shogun doesn't affect the attack at all and the Daimyos indeed do not stack. Without the weird scaling of the daimyo/pavilion ashis would have 62.4 attack. Thats still quite the difference! Also in the past ashi attack was 26, which would result in 77.2915 attack.

[HUMMAN]

Probably stats revolved protect their real value like 0 hp units.