ESOC elo ladder

User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:One problem is that since the average new player on ep is between major and capitain, it is the same winning vs a major and winning vs a ms that has never played on ep (which is probably why eaglemut was preseeded master tourney for instance). It means that you can get a colonel elo since bashing major (what a colonel does) is the same like bashing ms (what a lt does).

Honestly some of these aspects make me appreciate pr.

The biggest issue of pr is that you can play with low level civs, and that you deccay. If it weren't for that, it'd be very decent.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by momuuu »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
momuuu wrote:
bwinner1 wrote:One problem is that since the average new player on ep is between major and capitain, it is the same winning vs a major and winning vs a ms that has never played on ep (which is probably why eaglemut was preseeded master tourney for instance). It means that you can get a colonel elo since bashing major (what a colonel does) is the same like bashing ms (what a lt does).

Honestly some of these aspects make me appreciate pr.

The biggest issue of pr is that you can play with low level civs, and that you deccay. If it weren't for that, it'd be very decent.

Yeah and maybe the way pr behaves when you only have a very small amount of games played is a tiny bit extreme, but otherwise it does feel like a reasonable system.
User avatar
Tuvalu gibson
Ninja
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 13597
Joined: May 4, 2015
Location: USA

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by gibson »

Yea pr is good and if you don't take into account decayed accounts and low hc smurfs it's really just as accurate as elo. I guess elo is nice cause it splits between 1v1 and team though.
User avatar
France bwinner
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mar 14, 2016
ESO: bwinner

Re: ESOC elo ladder

  • Quote

Post by bwinner »

When is the france vs world championship ?
(can you win one more @Kynesie pls ?)
Attachments
FranceOP.PNG
Image
User avatar
Sweden Gendarme
Gendarme
Donator 03
Posts: 5132
Joined: Sep 11, 2016
ESO: Gendarme

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Gendarme »

The power of snails, garlic, and baguettes!
Pay more attention to detail.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Garja »

gibson wrote:Yea pr is good and if you don't take into account decayed accounts and low hc smurfs it's really just as accurate as elo. I guess elo is nice cause it splits between 1v1 and team though.

If you don't take into account that stuff then it's just another elo rating chart simply with a different scale.
Image Image Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

bwinner1 wrote:When is the france vs world championship ?
(can you win one more @Kynesie pls ?)

Funny thing is that I asked him to bash a noob tonight so that we can have a french top 4 xD.

France vs the world would be interesting (something like we all play a 1v1, then some 2v2s and some 3v3s).
What would also be nice is a French championship (I think 100-150$ would be enough for that :P ).
Germany supernapoleon
Lancer
Posts: 655
Joined: Sep 9, 2015
ESO: Supernapoleon
Location: Munich

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by supernapoleon »

:lol: Still no seasonal tournaments won by France
"I'M SOOOOOO GOOD AT THE GAME"
Hazza wrote: "I mad u win cos u get carried all game and have to lame every game"
Image
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

supernapoleon wrote::lol: Still no seasonal tournaments won by France

Not yet ;)
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea pr is good and if you don't take into account decayed accounts and low hc smurfs it's really just as accurate as elo. I guess elo is nice cause it splits between 1v1 and team though.

If you don't take into account that stuff then it's just another elo rating chart simply with a different scale.

No, because it starts from zero, changes happen at a slightly slower pace and it actually slightly increases the pace of changes for new accounts. Those are very key differences.
User avatar
France bwinner
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mar 14, 2016
ESO: bwinner

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by bwinner »

supernapoleon wrote::lol: Still no seasonal tournaments won by France

kaiser won week end tour final and diarouga invitationnal though
Image
Sweden Challe
Musketeer
Posts: 95
Joined: Nov 11, 2018
ESO: Challe

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Challe »

3v3 Sweden vs France
User avatar
France Aykin Haraka
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1016
Joined: Jul 27, 2016
ESO: aykin

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Aykin Haraka »

3v2 you mean?
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:
Garja wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea pr is good and if you don't take into account decayed accounts and low hc smurfs it's really just as accurate as elo. I guess elo is nice cause it splits between 1v1 and team though.

If you don't take into account that stuff then it's just another elo rating chart simply with a different scale.

No, because it starts from zero, changes happen at a slightly slower pace and it actually slightly increases the pace of changes for new accounts. Those are very key differences.

That's just a differentt scale (apparently you can go below zero btw). New account multiplier is one of the things I assumed discarded by Gibson post.
Image Image Image
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

No, because it starts from zero, changes happen at a slightly slower pace and it actually slightly increases the pace of changes for new accounts. Those are very key differences.

That's just a differentt scale (apparently you can go below zero btw). New account multiplier is one of the things I assumed discarded by Gibson post.

it's not just a different scale. Presumably for ELO the average elo is 1600. The average pr is not 0! It's definitely different from an ELO system and I think it has serious advantages in this scenario.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Kaiserklein »

The average or the initial rating doesn't matter. Having a starting ELO of 1600 or of 0 doesn't make any difference. What matters is that pr takes into account the homecity level, the amount of games, the civs played, and probably some other bs (like you get your pr back faster when you've been inactive, for example), and it decays. While ELO just takes into account your current ELO and your opponent's, and doesn't decay, which is better because if you come back after a long time you'll naturally lose some ELO anyway. ELO is just a more objective rating system.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Hazza54321 »

Still shit at teamgames and thats what matters
Great Britain WickedCossack
Retired Contributor
Posts: 1904
Joined: Feb 11, 2015

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by WickedCossack »

I really like the PR system, it's just the odd major flaw that hugely lets it down but if tweaked would be great.

Elo has the problem in that it can vary so much day to day which I'm not a huge fan of. As hazza points out it is awful at team games too. There's a lot of random 1st leuits with insane team elos, I think some even have 3k ?? That needs to be adjusted. PR does very well at accomdating for both 1v1 and team in a way that elo does not.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

As I said, if it weren't for the deccay and low HCs, PR would be really good. I totally agree that elo can vary way too much, you can lose 150 elos in one day, and probably win like 100, which makes no sense, while you can hardly lose more than 1 PR in one day.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Kaiserklein »

WickedCossack wrote:I really like the PR system, it's just the odd major flaw that hugely lets it down but if tweaked would be great.

Elo has the problem in that it can vary so much day to day which I'm not a huge fan of. As hazza points out it is awful at team games too. There's a lot of random 1st leuits with insane team elos, I think some even have 3k ?? That needs to be adjusted. PR does very well at accomdating for both 1v1 and team in a way that elo does not.

Mixing 1v1 and team rating makes no sense though. Plus those lieuts getting 3k ELO are probably just noob bashing or something, it's impossible to naturally reach that ELO as a lieut. And you have the exact same thing with pr anyway, some dudes reaching pr 50 or whatever through noob bashing, low level homecities, and so on.

But I agree that ELO changes too fast, that's the main problem of it. But that's just the case in aoe3, if you look at the chess ELO it's much better. Maybe because the aoe3 player base is too small, and players with very different ratings end up playing against each other, resulting in big ELO changes if the one with the bigger ELO somehow loses.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:The average or the initial rating doesn't matter. Having a starting ELO of 1600 or of 0 doesn't make any difference. What matters is that pr takes into account the homecity level, the amount of games, the civs played, and probably some other bs (like you get your pr back faster when you've been inactive, for example), and it decays. While ELO just takes into account your current ELO and your opponent's, and doesn't decay, which is better because if you come back after a long time you'll naturally lose some ELO anyway. ELO is just a more objective rating system.


i'm not sure if its better that elo doesn't decay, because when you get hugh elo, then don't play for 2 years, come back, according to elo you are still let's say 2500 elo, but your real level is probably like 2100 elo. So the person who beats you, gets way more elo than he should get. This is also part of the inflation.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Kaiserklein »

umeu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:The average or the initial rating doesn't matter. Having a starting ELO of 1600 or of 0 doesn't make any difference. What matters is that pr takes into account the homecity level, the amount of games, the civs played, and probably some other bs (like you get your pr back faster when you've been inactive, for example), and it decays. While ELO just takes into account your current ELO and your opponent's, and doesn't decay, which is better because if you come back after a long time you'll naturally lose some ELO anyway. ELO is just a more objective rating system.


i'm not sure if its better that elo doesn't decay, because when you get hugh elo, then don't play for 2 years, come back, according to elo you are still let's say 2500 elo, but your real level is probably like 2100 elo. So the person who beats you, gets way more elo than he should get. This is also part of the inflation.

But would decaying to 1600 ELO make more sense?
Anyway, supposedly that person getting too much ELO by beating someone rusty should lose it soon enough by playing other people. Then again, the player base is so small that it might not be the case. But tbh we won't ever have a good rating system with so few players.
And it does inflate the ELO overall, but I don't think that matters.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by deleted_user0 »

Kaiserklein wrote:
umeu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:The average or the initial rating doesn't matter. Having a starting ELO of 1600 or of 0 doesn't make any difference. What matters is that pr takes into account the homecity level, the amount of games, the civs played, and probably some other bs (like you get your pr back faster when you've been inactive, for example), and it decays. While ELO just takes into account your current ELO and your opponent's, and doesn't decay, which is better because if you come back after a long time you'll naturally lose some ELO anyway. ELO is just a more objective rating system.


i'm not sure if its better that elo doesn't decay, because when you get hugh elo, then don't play for 2 years, come back, according to elo you are still let's say 2500 elo, but your real level is probably like 2100 elo. So the person who beats you, gets way more elo than he should get. This is also part of the inflation.

But would decaying to 1600 ELO make more sense?


maybe not. pr doesn't decay to baseline btw. perhaps a certain amount of decay would be ok. like 300-400 elo max with 1600 as minimum.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by Garja »

PR was clearly intended to be more of a ladder thing to motivate people into play actively. It's not just the decay part but also starting from the name of the scoring system, the ranks given to each PR range, etc. PR is basically meant to roughly sort players by their experience (a strong proxy to current rating) so that they can play with others of similar level.
Elo is a more serious rating system, which reflects the current state of form of players. If you look at Elo in chess, top players switch position after a tourney by playing against each other. It's simply the norm.

Of course if you remove all the special mechanics that the PR has, in the end it is just a rating system with a very similar formula to the Elo one.
Image Image Image
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: ESOC elo ladder

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:The average or the initial rating doesn't matter. Having a starting ELO of 1600 or of 0 doesn't make any difference. What matters is that pr takes into account the homecity level, the amount of games, the civs played, and probably some other bs (like you get your pr back faster when you've been inactive, for example), and it decays. While ELO just takes into account your current ELO and your opponent's, and doesn't decay, which is better because if you come back after a long time you'll naturally lose some ELO anyway. ELO is just a more objective rating system.

Actually the way I understand it is that pr starts at 0, and then quickly tries to determine what the actual ELO of a player is by inflating the rank changes for a little while. The average rating for pr is probably around 15 or so, at least its definitely more than 0. For ELO the average rating should be 1600.

The big problem with this is that on an ELO system with the size of ep's, where you get a top tier ELO if you reach 1800, it's actually beneficial to bash new players for rank, because beating a 1600 player will actually give a reasonable amount of ELO. If then, the influx of new players is reasonably large, this is going to distort the system pretty badly.

The way pr handles new players is probably slightly better for a ranking system with such a small playerbase and such a relatively large amount of new players. If the system will actively try to determine your real ranking for the first 10 games, and thus increase the rank you get from a win (but also decrease the rank the other player loses due to losing to a new player), the system will not be as exploitable. Similair systems are actually used in many competitive games, where the matchmaker will just take a few games to try to find what rank you really are, without letting other players profit from that.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV