The problem with walls

[n0el]

Siege multiplier seems like a great solution.

[Kaiserklein]

Let's not forget the context in which this thread was made: Gibson played a 3v3 (on Siberia, which is a mistake if you don't like walls, but okay) that went all the way to age 4/5. The other team made 10 layers of walls and kept building them even during the attack of Gibsons team. Gibsons teams only had max 3 layers, and after a long while of being ahead, attacking the other team and having map control, Gibsons team was trashed. You can't say to Gibson "He doesn't know how to beat it" because that has nothing to do with it in the context of this game and of this thread.

Gibson himself acknowledged that they lost because they didn't have adequate walling themselves. He went on to say that he didn't make more than 1-2 layers of wall because he doesn't enjoy that kind of game. That opinion is perfectly valid (and I happen to share it), but you can;t say there's something wrong with walls when you yourself acknowledge that you lost because you didn't do what it took to win.

You can say there's something wrong with walls if you lose because you didn't build 10 layers while the other team did. Being forced to do that means they're too strong and too easy to spam.

Funny how you need zero adaptation and zero defense skills when you wall up your base, yet people doing that say that we complain about it because we don't know how to adapt... Honestly it's just useless to discuss this, just nerf walls without taking the opinion of people like breeze in consideration

well, you have to adapt, to, like, not having a full map of resources? it's not like you wall up and win instantly

By adaptation I mean taking decisions depending on what your opponent does. When you're behind a wall you can just do your little plan without needing to adapt very much (still a bit ofc, I exaggerated), unlike in a real game.

[edeholland]

That makes no sense. No building should always give a straight up advantage. Whether you make a building/unit should be a consideration, a choice. Building a barracks doesn't always give you an advantage, but only if you are able to produce good units from it. Building 50 barracks isn't useful for that reason. Walls always give you an advantage because it's only the 200-300 resources like Mitoe mentioned, which is nothing. The bad thing here is that it's necessary to build walls which breaks any logic and removes skill from the game.
Also, to me it feels like you think that disliking walls isn't a good argument against them. I think that's a great argument. Walls are not only broken, they are also completely not fun and take skill out of of the game.

It's necessary to do a lot of things in this game in order to win. And no, I don't think a couple guys disliking walls is a good argument for nerfing/removing them, especially when that disdain is 100% rooted in those guys not wanting to adapt. Instead of altering the game to fit your playstyle, alter your playstyle to fit the game.

You are talking in circles. You are making claims about "a couple guys not wanting to adapt", I respond to them in length, and you come back to your own argument again.

[BrookG]

So AI being stuck when facing walls was correct all along

[Hazza54321]

Sorry lads , we have to adapt to a shit game that lowers the skill cap and so people who cant micro can last more than 15mins. Ever wonder why every hardcore waller has shit micro

[pecelot]

200-300 resources is not nothing, and I definitely don't think that wooden walls "always" give you an advantage. On RE, maybe, but this is definitely not the case on EP.

Bastioned walls might be a problem in that regard, though.

which is why bastion costs 1000 resources and takes forever to research

[Kaiserklein]

1000 res is quite an investment, but since it gives you an obscene amount of time to sit in base and abuse your lategame (as ports or japs notably) it's easily worth it

[deleted_user0]

One option could be to enable bastion via card. Perhaps advanced arsenal or a similar tech. Can leave it as is, and unluck tech with adv arsenal card (or equivalent for non euros) or have adv wall card which increases wall hp to 3k and unlocks bastion upgrade in age2. Otherwise bastion doesnt become available until age 4.

[Oliveza]

We could also have a minimal distance between walls , so that you cant spam a lot of wall close to one another and turtle it out in a little Corner of the map , if lets say you would have to have 20tiles between 2 layers then the 5+layers of wall turtle wouldnt be as effective as it can be right now.


Note: idk if ist even possible to Programm that since it would be hard to define what 1layer of wall is bcs wall Segments are different in (size) lenght. Also most pr25+ Players delete the pillars.

[edeholland]

We could also have a minimal distance between walls , so that you cant spam a lot of wall close to one another and turtle it out in a little Corner of the map , if lets say you would have to have 20tiles between 2 layers then the 5+layers of wall turtle wouldnt be as effective as it can be right now.


Note: idk if ist even possible to Programm that since it would be hard to define what 1layer of wall is bcs wall Segments are different in (size) lenght. Also most pr25+ Players delete the pillars.

I think the only way to do that is by making walls freakin' huge, like the ones you see in scenario's and campaigns.

[Aizamk]

To me the solution is to simply make build time proportional/ at least vary in some way with length of segment and get bastion to increase build time as well as hitpoints.

[Oliveza]

I think the only way to do that is by making walls freakin' huge, like the ones you see in scenario's and campaigns.

Or: dont make the Animated Wall huge, but rather the indicator, which represents the wall, like an invisible barrier that prevents you from building near a layer of wall.

[deleted_user]

okay it gets more sad. this will be my last post about the Wall discussion.

1- bad players will keep complain while real good players will adapt ( they know who they are )

2- walls are quite easy to kill in current meta

3- Walls hp is nerfed by %50 in age1 which is quite huge

4- any other nerf will destroy the patch soon

5- the patch team takes place from one sided players which results an impossible balance

6- schooner change is the best result to show how can you ruin the balance ( now we have advanced dock issue thanks to balance team )

7- almost impossible to make a helpful conversation about balance issues since the patch team attitude is kinda like "I decided to do so, but if you have anything to say tell me" which is not worth discussing again an again

8- late game walls can get nerf smt like 6k hp and that would be the last change to do

9- there are still some fanatics Who think kynesie is bad player LOL

10- it seems like, soon its time to go back to 3v3 std games

[gibson]

To me the solution is to simply make build time proportional/ at least vary in some way with length of segment and get bastion to increase build time as well as hitpoints.

bastion x5 build time ftw

[Gendarme]

this will be my last post about the Wall discussion.

Nice

[princeofkabul]

okay it gets more sad. this will be my last post about the Wall discussion.

1- bad players will keep complain while real good players will adapt ( they know who they are )

2- walls are quite easy to kill in current meta

3- Walls hp is nerfed by %50 in age1 which is quite huge

4- any other nerf will destroy the patch soon

5- the patch team takes place from one sided players which results an impossible balance

6- schooner change is the best result to show how can you ruin the balance ( now we have advanced dock issue thanks to balance team )

7- almost impossible to make a helpful conversation about balance issues since the patch team attitude is kinda like "I decided to do so, but if you have anything to say tell me" which is not worth discussing again an again

8- late game walls can get nerf smt like 6k hp and that would be the last change to do

9- there are still some fanatics Who think kynesie is bad player LOL

10- it seems like, soon its time to go back to 3v3 std games

Out of curiosity, don't you think it's absurd that the games where i'm playing with you, you limit the walls because you know that I don't like them. And games where i'm not with you, you spam them as you see fit because that's what you like to do. It clearly tells me that there has to be some kind of change so we can both do what we like at the same time in the same game? You can do walls which totally are not able to kill the tempo of the game like currently, and i'm able to play my own game hence of some some kind of wall nerf?

[momuuu]

Rts games are about strategically interacting with your opponent. Walls make it so that a player can choose to not strategically interact. Its bad game design.

[deleted_user0]

I agree with aiz. Build time is key. And bastionlike 4x hp so should 2-3x buildtime

[Garja]

or 3x hp and 3x time

[deleted_user0]

Ye but i already want to increase base time for wood walls, if you increase that 3x i think it will take too long

[edeholland]

If you get 3x build time and 3x hp, why not just build 3 layers instead of 1?

[Gendarme]

Why not build 1 layer instead of 3?

[edeholland]

Why not build 1 layer instead of 3?

Because you spend 1k resources on the upgrade.

[Gendarme]

But it still costs 5 wood to build

[edeholland]

Which is too little, imo.