whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

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whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Squamiger »

I really like playing Sioux but everyone tells me sioux is too OP on the regular eso server. Is this true / what is the civ advantage like outside of the EP
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Kaiserklein »

Sioux are not very good, but because the RE maps are so bad they usually do fine by just raiding and running around the map with 8 speed cav. They're not OP, just annoying
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Papist »

Sioux is a "broken" civ -- really good in one aspect (cavalry, particularly bow riders) but terrible in all others. The teepee change on EP was designed to remedy this by giving Sioux economic options.

The Iroquois and Ottomans are widely considered to be the strongest/most OP civs on RE patch, but ranking the others can be challenging because they are so map dependent. It'd probably be more helpful to organize them into tiers.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Interjection »

There must be a tier list floating around? RE Patch has been about for donkeys years
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by deleted_user »

It's entirely contingent on maps, of which there are many types of variable consistencies
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Mitoe »

This is my rough tier list for RE patch. Also assumes RE standard map pool.

1) Iroquois
2) Ottomans
3) German
4) France
5) India
6) Aztec/Sioux
7) Russia/China
8) Japan
9) British
10) Spain
11) Dutch
12) Portuguese
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I agree with Mitoe, except Sioux is the worst civ imo.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by momuuu »

I dont know, the effect of maps should maybe on average give japan and india a bit of a boost and be more detrimental to France and Germany, especially considering no TP maps.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Garja »

Iro
Otto
Germans/India/Aztecs/China/Japan
Brits/French/Sioux/Russia
Port/Spain
Dutch
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by DracoWolfgand »

I dont get what is so bad about Portugal. They have a slow start, admittedly, but being the only civilization that gets a free Covered Wagon on the-Colonial-Age speeds up their economy majorly.

I am not sure if I would call the Dutch "The worst" civilization.... Actually, it is really hard for me to think of what would be objectively the worst and best civilization( I think I once said the Chinese are my least favourite civilization, though, but on their case it is because I feel the banner army mechanic is often more of a hinderance then of any help, as it makes it harder to be flexible with army compositions. I literally have no idea of how good they are competitively on high SRs, but I just find then annoiyng to play. ). With that said, I cant be the only one who feels the Dutch Home City Cards are very lackluster, as they hae very few cards dedicated to boosting their units and the ones they actually have arent anything special either. On the Industrial Age, Solingen Steel-boosted Doppelsoldners, despite not being a Royal Guard unit, -Crush-Royal Guard Dutch Halberdiers.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

DracoWolfgand wrote:I dont get what is so bad about Portugal. They have a slow start, admittedly, but being the only civilization that gets a free Covered Wagon on the-Colonial-Age speeds up their economy majorly.

I am not sure if I would call the Dutch "The worst" civilization.... Actually, it is really hard for me to think of what would be objectively the worst and best civilization( I think I once said the Chinese are my least favourite civilization, though, but on their case it is because I feel the banner army mechanic is often more of a hinderance then of any help, as it makes it harder to be flexible with army compositions. I literally have no idea of how good they are competitively on high SRs, but I just find then annoiyng to play. ). With that said, I cant be the only one who feels the Dutch Home City Cards are very lackluster, as they hae very few cards dedicated to boosting their units and the ones they actually have arent anything special either. On the Industrial Age, Solingen Steel-boosted Doppelsoldners, despite not being a Royal Guard unit, -Crush-Royal Guard Dutch Halberdiers.

Port are just trash on no ATP/no water maps. They don't have a good economy (no vill shipments), and they can't mass units because they have no economy.
They're great on water maps tho, which is why they're not the worst civ in the game.
Dutch is probably the worst RE civs however, because they're bad in pretty much every situation. As a defensive civ, they can't mass a lot of units early, and their economy isn't actually great, even with 4 banks.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by DracoWolfgand »

On water maps, Portuguese economy is actually pretty awesome.

On land maps, it is... Well... I think that how fast they can produce villagers during the Colonial Age sort of makes up for inability to ship then, though... Yeah, it depends. The Portuguese certainly do not like to be rushed, at all. Then again, they also have great defensive options on their deck, so... I guess I would not classify then as much as "bad" as "hard to play"? As in, once you get over their poor start, they can make up for it? I am not a pro player, though, so what do I know?

I think that on paper the point of Dutch economy is for you to leave the banks producing gold, have your settlers focus on food and wood, and basically have 149 population slots left to expend on your military left rather then just 100. Of course, they just do not actually have a economy good enough to make so many soldiers so fast, so what should have been their main "advantage" becomes kind of moot.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

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Post by Papist »

I can't do the math because I don't have the exact numbers for villager training time and age up time, but iirc it takes roughly 10 minutes for Port to overcome other civs' villager count, and even longer to develop a meaningful lead. So yes, while the TC bonus is good; the lack of villager shipments puts Ports way behind economically and militarily. If rushed, they may never have the chance to enjoy an economic lead.

They also don't have the 2 falc shipment and lack a good counter to other civs' falcs. The 5 mameluk shipment is good, but it takes time to save the gold, time Ports often don't have.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Warno »

India probably underrated on RE, I usually struggle the most vs Sepoy rush and aggressive Agra.
On shit hunt maps it is very tough to deal with.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by DracoWolfgand »

Papist wrote:I can't do the math because I don't have the exact numbers for villager training time and age up time, but iirc it takes roughly 10 minutes for Port to overcome other civs' villager count, and even longer to develop a meaningful lead. So yes, while the TC bonus is good; the lack of villager shipments puts Ports way behind economically and militarily. If rushed, they may never have the chance to enjoy an economic lead.

They also don't have the 2 falc shipment and lack a good counter to other civs' falcs. The 5 mameluk shipment is good, but it takes time to save the gold, time Ports often don't have.


Errrm... Best Dragoons of any European civilization? Their own Culverin shipment? -Debatably-The 5 mameluke shipment, though... I will admit I put this one on my deck because I just wont usually find myself just sitting on such a large amount of gold.

I never considered the Portuguese as defenseless against Falconets or anything. Though I will admit using light cavalry to counter artillery is not something I personally like to do( As artillery often has such high range resistance it kind of makes up for the multipliers of light cavalry. That is probably part of why I think Yabusame suck. ), but hey, if any civilization can do it, it is the Germans, with their meaty and long-ranged War Wagons. But if any civilizations BESIDES the Germans can do it, it is the Portuguese.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by P i k i l i c »

DracoWolfgand wrote:Errrm... Best Dragoons of any European civilization? Their own Culverin shipment? -Debatably-The 5 mameluke shipment, though... I will admit I put this one on my deck because I just wont usually find myself just sitting on such a large amount of gold.

I never considered the Portuguese as defenseless against Falconets or anything. Though I will admit using light cavalry to counter artillery is not something I personally like to do( As artillery often has such high range resistance it kind of makes up for the multipliers of light cavalry. That is probably part of why I think Yabusame suck. ), but hey, if any civilization can do it, it is the Germans, with their meaty and long-ranged War Wagons. But if any civilizations BESIDES the Germans can do it, it is the Portuguese.

The thing is, if we are talking about 1v1, having the best dragoons barely matters because the probability Portuguese can mass them and send the upgrade(s) is very low. What do you mean by "their own culverin shipment"? Culverin shipments are in age IV, so in 1v1 it is irrelevant and in team you don't want to send culverins when you are age IV.
Btw, Papist's point was that 2 organ guns lose to 2 falconets, so its tougher to play for the Portuguese player
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by DracoWolfgand »

I dont like Organ Guns... I mean, I honestly do not understand what is their advantage over Culverins suppose to be. So, I guess we agree on that.

... On most of the games I played, if it does gets to the Industrial Age, Culverins are common due to their ability to counter other artillery while staiyng out of the range of enemy units. Many games by this point tend to start revolving between a kind of attriction war involving loads of ranged units-Often a group of artillery units or light infantry units escorted by some form of ranged heavy infantry-As well as the occasional heavy cavalry triyng to maneuver to reach the opponents back row before they get sniped. It seemed intuitive for me, as in very large-scale battles, focus fire becomes more of a factor, and thus the range of your units more of a priority. I will... Assume, however, that is not how it plays out in high SR? This is a honest question, by the way: I am just describing my usual gaming experience and triyng to understand what is the difference between what I have been doing and what higher ranked players have been doing.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by dansil92 »

DracoWolfgand wrote:I dont like Organ Guns... I mean, I honestly do not understand what is their advantage over Culverins suppose to be. So, I guess we agree on that.

... On most of the games I played, if it does gets to the Industrial Age, Culverins are common due to their ability to counter other artillery while staiyng out of the range of enemy units. Many games by this point tend to start revolving between a kind of attriction war involving loads of ranged units-Often a group of artillery units or light infantry units escorted by some form of ranged heavy infantry-As well as the occasional heavy cavalry triyng to maneuver to reach the opponents back row before they get sniped. It seemed intuitive for me, as in very large-scale battles, focus fire becomes more of a factor, and thus the range of your units more of a priority. I will... Assume, however, that is not how it plays out in high SR? This is a honest question, by the way: I am just describing my usual gaming experience and triyng to understand what is the difference between what I have been doing and what higher ranked players have been doing.


Range is always one of the most important factors in any skill level- its why skirmishers are so critical in fortress age. Range is a hard to quantify stat, much like speed, and often determines a unit's usefulness far more than its damage or hitpoints.
For example: wakina vs cetan (RE)

Cetan bow does 15 damage every 1.5 sec @ 16 range

Elite Wakina 20 damage every 3 sec @ 18 range

So colonial cetans do way more dps (50% more) than fortress age wakina but because of the range advantage and lack of a fire animation the wakina is the far superior unit.

Also, organ guns are a very specialized unit that is only really good against masses of infantry, especially weak, short ranged infantry like musketeers, strelets, macehualtin, chu ko nus. They are more or less useless against anything else.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by Papist »

DracoWolfgand wrote:
Errrm... Best Dragoons of any European civilization? Their own Culverin shipment? -Debatably-The 5 mameluke shipment, though... I will admit I put this one on my deck because I just wont usually find myself just sitting on such a large amount of gold.

I never considered the Portuguese as defenseless against Falconets or anything. Though I will admit using light cavalry to counter artillery is not something I personally like to do( As artillery often has such high range resistance it kind of makes up for the multipliers of light cavalry. That is probably part of why I think Yabusame suck. ), but hey, if any civilization can do it, it is the Germans, with their meaty and long-ranged War Wagons. But if any civilizations BESIDES the Germans can do it, it is the Portuguese.


Keep in mind that I'm assuming the game is being played in age 2/3, since >95% of competitive games never get past that point. In age 3, Port goons are not royal guard and they have no culverin shipment. They have a 2 organ shipment, but organs lose to falcs because they have a setup animation (falcs don't), do damage progressively rather than in one big punch (meaning that falcs can one shot an organ instantly while the reverse is not true), and have lower HP than falcs. When a civ like France is pushing with 2 falcs, Ports do not have the economy to get out enough units to deal with it effectively. Unless the opponent messes up, there is no counter to that shipment.
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Re: whats the civ ranking on the official (non esoc) patch

Post by dansil92 »

Papist wrote:
DracoWolfgand wrote:
Errrm... Best Dragoons of any European civilization? Their own Culverin shipment? -Debatably-The 5 mameluke shipment, though... I will admit I put this one on my deck because I just wont usually find myself just sitting on such a large amount of gold.

I never considered the Portuguese as defenseless against Falconets or anything. Though I will admit using light cavalry to counter artillery is not something I personally like to do( As artillery often has such high range resistance it kind of makes up for the multipliers of light cavalry. That is probably part of why I think Yabusame suck. ), but hey, if any civilization can do it, it is the Germans, with their meaty and long-ranged War Wagons. But if any civilizations BESIDES the Germans can do it, it is the Portuguese.


Keep in mind that I'm assuming the game is being played in age 2/3, since >95% of competitive games never get past that point. In age 3, Port goons are not royal guard and they have no culverin shipment. They have a 2 organ shipment, but organs lose to falcs because they have a setup animation (falcs don't), do damage progressively rather than in one big punch (meaning that falcs can one shot an organ instantly while the reverse is not true), and have lower HP than falcs. When a civ like France is pushing with 2 falcs, Ports do not have the economy to get out enough units to deal with it effectively. Unless the opponent messes up, there is no counter to that shipment.


Colonial militia can definitely be used to counter falcs... either minutemen or tc fire. Otherwise absolutely portugal struggles to counter falconets before they have a way to get culverins, often not something that is doable before 9-10 minutes. Its one of the reasons ports (and dutch) struggle so much against spain ff. Just no answer to the falcs
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