What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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Post by momuuu »

Okay, I admit defeat. In gibson land with ridiculous gibson metrics everybody is shit because gibson made up all sorts of ridiculous definitions and uses a definition of good that isn't even consistent with english language.

What is your point even? That people that spend all their time practicing something professionally for hours a day and have at least a reasonable amount of talent are better than people that don't? No shit sherlock.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by n0el »

Thatā€™s been his point since he first started talking.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by gibson »

To add to this, I said it they would be op in 4 months. 14 months is 120 days playing 8 hours a day is 960 hours and we will throw some off days in and say 800 hours. One game every 20 minutes on average is 2400 games. 2400 games in i was high captain. And that includes a lot of games when I was sergeant and only playing like 10 games a month, a lot of low level team games, and a lot of not trying. Also my games were spread over 4 years,not 4 months. If you think that someone who is a natural gamer, who knows what it takes to be the top of a game, who is trying hard with all the resources we have avaliable and is getting help from people couldn't be a lot better than I was you're just small brain Tbh.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:Okay, I admit defeat. In gibson land with ridiculous gibson metrics everybody is shit because gibson made up all sorts of ridiculous definitions and uses a definition of good that isn't even consistent with english language.

What is your point even? That people that spend all their time practicing something professionally for hours a day and have at least a reasonable amount of talent are better than people that don't? No shit sherlock.
Largely yes, which is why I find it ridiculous that you're arguing against me. You're literally arguing against when when you admit my point is painfully obvious.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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themista actually isnt a good example, cuz while he did get pr35 he couldnt get past it, while he did try to. he got stuck on not understanding the game and got frustrated with it. same happened to TLS. in any case, you are right to some extent with what you say. But not entirely, because you don't acknowledge the fact that competition drives improvement. And lack of competition stifles it. So players who play now, are most likely not playing at their peak performance. And as mentioned by others, in aoe, raw mechanical skill isn't all that important, and as such, the training of pro koreans as well as the perceived talent you ascribe to them, real or not, doesn't yield as much of an advantage. Basically what you're saying is that if there are people who would try a lot harder than anyone right now, under better circumstances than anyone has right now, they would be better trained at the game than anyone right now... well no shit sherlock. That's a pretty redundant statement. It has little to do with any natural aptitude or whatever tho, as that's something you can't judge under these circumstances.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by gibson »

umeu wrote:themista actually isnt a good example, cuz while he did get pr35 he couldnt get past it, while he did try to. he got stuck on not understanding the game and got frustrated with it. same happened to TLS. in any case, you are right to some extent with what you say. But not entirely, because you don't acknowledge the fact that competition drives improvement. And lack of competition stifles it. So players who play now, are most likely not playing at their peak performance. And as mentioned by others, in aoe, raw mechanical skill isn't all that important, and as such, the training of pro koreans as well as the perceived talent you ascribe to them, real or not, doesn't yield as much of an advantage.
That's true, I also think that the lack of competition is why mechanical skill is less important. I think if aoe was more competitive it would be more important, cause there would be less room for build out play. Now even the top players make enough mistakes that you can get away with average mechanics and still be very good at the game. I think if the overall skill of the game is higher mechanics would be much more important. It's okay if you lose a skirm for free now cause your opponent probably has 3 skirms of res banked and not made into units, so if you just macro slightly better than him you can make up for that. However if both players are macroing well and making correct decisions losing 1-2 units for free can be game changing.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by n0el »

gibson wrote:
umeu wrote:themista actually isnt a good example, cuz while he did get pr35 he couldnt get past it, while he did try to. he got stuck on not understanding the game and got frustrated with it. same happened to TLS. in any case, you are right to some extent with what you say. But not entirely, because you don't acknowledge the fact that competition drives improvement. And lack of competition stifles it. So players who play now, are most likely not playing at their peak performance. And as mentioned by others, in aoe, raw mechanical skill isn't all that important, and as such, the training of pro koreans as well as the perceived talent you ascribe to them, real or not, doesn't yield as much of an advantage.
That's true, I also think that the lack of competition is why mechanical skill is less important. I think if aoe was more competitive it would be more important, cause there would be less room for build out play. Now even the top players make enough mistakes that you can get away with average mechanics and still be very good at the game. I think if the overall skill of the game is higher mechanics would be much more important. It's okay if you lose a skirm for free now cause your opponent probably has 3 skirms of res banked and not made into units, so if you just macro slightly better than him you can make up for that. However if both players are macroing well and making correct decisions losing 1-2 units for free can be game changing.

Correct. Look back at the Japan mirror days, where it was much more about mechanics and being mistake free.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:To add to this a bit, there are a few example of former pro gamers that ended up becoming casters and, after having stopped training rigirously, got to something like high master league in sc2, if not lower. This makes gibson's comparison even worse, because that implies that diarouga/lordraphael for example could possibly get grandmaster in sc2 if they made it their job.
irrelevant, just like basically every comment you've made in this thread. Many people, if they invested enough time(which is a lot of time) and had the proper training, could reach gm. However anyone who knows anything about sc2 knows that the talent difference between a low gm and say a Korean professional is enormous. Anyway, it makes sense that people don't want to believe that someone could be as good or better than them at something while putting in a lot less time. However when you look at pro gamers who have committed substantial time towards other games ( elige being gm at the age of 15 and being one win away from qualifying for WCS 2013 season 1 is the most relevant example, or the mista getting to pr 32 in 200 games, although he'd obviously have a bit easier time than most since he came from another aoe game.) you'll see that they do very well. And btw that doesn't count X sc2 or aoe2 player played 20 hours and was 2nd lt. 20 hours obviously isn't anywhere near enough time.

TheMista played a lot more than 200 games. 200 rated games maybe, but he played a lot of unrated games with good players who trained him xD.
Also pr32 is like master 3 in sc2. After 4 months, a pro player might well reach pr37-38, which is the equivalent of low GM, but he won't reach pr40 in no time lol.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think that TLS is a good example. He was semi pro on sc2, and qualified for WCS iirc, and also one of the best aoe3 player in 2010, but he got frustrated because he couldn't be top player since he lacked the knowledge.

Anyway, claiming that aoe3 players are bad because they make mistakes is dumb lol. Even in sc2, most are far from having a perfect macro. I mean, just watch the tvt innovation plays, he does the same build as his opponent, and somehow gets +10-15 pop thanks to his superior macro, and this kind of shit happens vs byun or alive, who're both top progamers on sc2.
Likewise, I watched Soo's stream today, he's also top 3-4 zerg progamer, and still, he floated 1000 minerals/600 gas at some point because he was busy doing some other things.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by Jaeger »

Im just waiting for that moment in 10-20 years when an advanced enough AI will be publicly available and you can set it to master AOE3. Then we will really see what is the best. Gonna be really interesting to see how much of the meta would be completely overturned and people will be like wooow thatā€™s so obvious, how didnā€™t we think of that?
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

ovi12 wrote:Im just waiting for that moment in 10-20 years when an advanced enough AI will be publicly available and you can set it to master AOE3. Then we will really see what is the best. Gonna be really interesting to see how much of the meta would be completely overturned and people will be like wooow thatā€™s so obvious, how didnā€™t we think of that?

Pretty sure it would play just like me :chinese:
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by n0el »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that TLS is a good example. He was semi pro on sc2, and qualified for WCS iirc, and also one of the best aoe3 player in 2010, but he got frustrated because he couldn't be top player since he lacked the knowledge.

Anyway, claiming that aoe3 players are bad because they make mistakes is dumb lol. Even in sc2, most are far from having a perfect macro. I mean, just watch the tvt innovation plays, he does the same build as his opponent, and somehow gets +10-15 pop thanks to his superior macro, and this kind of shit happens vs byun or alive, who're both top progamers on sc2.
Likewise, I watched Soo's stream today, he's also top 3-4 zerg progamer, and still, he floated 1000 minerals/600 gas at some point because he was busy doing some other things.

But you have to admit, there's much more going on in SC2, it is just harder to be mistake free. In aoe3, it is easier to be mistake free.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

n0el wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that TLS is a good example. He was semi pro on sc2, and qualified for WCS iirc, and also one of the best aoe3 player in 2010, but he got frustrated because he couldn't be top player since he lacked the knowledge.

Anyway, claiming that aoe3 players are bad because they make mistakes is dumb lol. Even in sc2, most are far from having a perfect macro. I mean, just watch the tvt innovation plays, he does the same build as his opponent, and somehow gets +10-15 pop thanks to his superior macro, and this kind of shit happens vs byun or alive, who're both top progamers on sc2.
Likewise, I watched Soo's stream today, he's also top 3-4 zerg progamer, and still, he floated 1000 minerals/600 gas at some point because he was busy doing some other things.

But you have to admit, there's much more going on in SC2, it is just harder to be mistake free. In aoe3, it is easier to be mistake free.

Yea they're better because they played more and in better conditions. Still, they would get trashed on aoe3.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by momuuu »

Trashed is not the right word though. Of course in their first few games, but some sc2 players will probably adapt really quickly.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Im just waiting for that moment in 10-20 years when an advanced enough AI will be publicly available and you can set it to master AOE3. Then we will really see what is the best. Gonna be really interesting to see how much of the meta would be completely overturned and people will be like wooow thatā€™s so obvious, how didnā€™t we think of that?

Pretty sure it would play just like me :chinese:

Jokes aside it would not, because you have a quite polarized style toward defensive/timing based play. That kind of play works well for humans but not so much for machines.
Just look at how Alphazero play chess (vs a strong defending engine like Stockfish for the record). It plays aggressively with forcing variants even from the beginning, often breaking common knowledge rules such as "don't move the same piece twice in the opening". The equivalent for aoe3 would be like rushing a bit all in in spite of developing your own eco, if that gives you an advantage in a certain situation. It does still follow other human rules (or strategic ideas on which humans already have a grasp) such as giving up material for positional/dynamic advantages but it does it to an extent that humans are not capable of appreciating yet and so they back off while Alphazero insists.
In AOE3 that translates in a playstyle which would approximately be midground to what the average good player does and what Aiz does when he rushes with forward shipment point or stuff like that. Which is essentially the essence of the game. Alphazero plays chess according to his essence and so would do an hypothetical AOE3 machine.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Im just waiting for that moment in 10-20 years when an advanced enough AI will be publicly available and you can set it to master AOE3. Then we will really see what is the best. Gonna be really interesting to see how much of the meta would be completely overturned and people will be like wooow thatā€™s so obvious, how didnā€™t we think of that?

Pretty sure it would play just like me :chinese:

Jokes aside it would not, because you have a quite polarized style toward defensive/timing based play. That kind of play works well for humans but not so much for machines.
Just look at how Alphazero play chess (vs a strong defending engine like Stockfish for the record). It plays aggressively with forcing variants even from the beginning, often breaking common knowledge rules such as "don't move the same piece twice in the opening". The equivalent for aoe3 would be like rushing a bit all in in spite of developing your own eco, if that gives you an advantage in a certain situation. It does still follow other human rules (or strategic ideas on which humans already have a grasp) such as giving up material for positional/dynamic advantages but it does it to an extent that humans are not capable of appreciating yet and so they back off while Alphazero insists.
In AOE3 that translates in a playstyle which would approximately be midground to what the average good player does and what Aiz does when he rushes with forward shipment point or stuff like that. Which is essentially the essence of the game. Alphazero plays chess according to his essence and so would do an hypothetical AOE3 machine.

I doubt a perfect computer would play that way. TC is just too strong in aoe3, and I'm pretty sure a computer would have perfect macro/micro and timing, and it would be impossible to hold that timing.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by Garja »

Again, I think you tend to overstimate defenders advatange compared to offenders advantage in AOE3. The way this game is made (at least originally, EP somewhat changed it) is so that being the aggressor gives more advantages than being the defender.
This is why, rush civs have always been among top civs and why even in mirror being the one with initiative has proven to be the best way to go. There are few exceptions to this if you look at the history of the game.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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Defemsimg is favorable cause mm+ tx fire shipments and units come in batches. Agression is bettrr at low level cause it is easier to punish mistakes of openemt while attacking. But players like h20 defend good and win
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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That's not what I mean with being the offender. That's just donk wasting units under TC. A proper attack is more like contain/exploit map control in some way.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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It would be great if ai would go double jan or spam sepoy xd
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Anyway, the comparision between chess and aoe3 isn't relevant. In chess you either have a dynamic position, with good pieces or you don't. In aoe3 you can defend, and then become dynamic, which is better.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

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There are plenty of analogies between the 2 games.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by momuuu »

There are also plenty of analogies between aoe3 and many other games though.

Ultimately I hope AI never touches aoe3. Aoe3's beauty is in the way strategy works. It's easy enough for us to understand it pretty well, but it's complex enough for people to not solve it completely and it matters enough for players to outsmart/strategize eachother. If you let an AI brute force aoe3, getting good at aoe3 will just be a matter of studying how the AI handles things and copying that. The beauty of aoe3 is that many of us are actively figuring out things that haven't been figured out before or at least aren't ubiqitous knowledge. For example, I was basically on of the first players to use the China dock card in combination with the EP changes to fishing boats and I've seen it referred to as Jerom FF or something and people referring to cheeky wall segments as Jerom walls (even though I dont think I came up with that myself). That's amazing considering how much of a no-name I really am in the aoe3 scene. This basically means that any no name could potentially figure out some neat little trick or come up with a style that actually ends up being relevant for competitive play. AI would take this all away.
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:There are also plenty of analogies between aoe3 and many other games though.

Ultimately I hope AI never touches aoe3. Aoe3's beauty is in the way strategy works. It's easy enough for us to understand it pretty well, but it's complex enough for people to not solve it completely and it matters enough for players to outsmart/strategize eachother. If you let an AI brute force aoe3, getting good at aoe3 will just be a matter of studying how the AI handles things and copying that. The beauty of aoe3 is that many of us are actively figuring out things that haven't been figured out before or at least aren't ubiqitous knowledge. For example, I was basically on of the first players to use the China dock card in combination with the EP changes to fishing boats and I've seen it referred to as Jerom FF or something and people referring to cheeky wall segments as Jerom walls (even though I dont think I came up with that myself). That's amazing considering how much of a no-name I really am in the aoe3 scene. This basically means that any no name could potentially figure out some neat little trick or come up with a style that actually ends up being relevant for competitive play. AI would take this all away.

Yea, and just see how many rouga builds we have!
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Re: What is more important: IQ or mechanics?

Post by momuuu »

Implied cynicism aside, I think it'd be pretty cool to be an even more active contributor to strategies and playstyles. Kynesie is another person that comes to mind. This is one of the things that is really special about aoe3. It allows for relative casuals like us to actually discover the game rather than reproduce what others do.

Maybe to get back on topic a little bit, this can also be related to the actual question of IQ vs mechanics. Because you have to gather much of the knowledge about how to play aoe3 from testing things yourself and coming up with strategies yourself it's very hard to be a mechanical bot that just copies strategies from others with decent mechanics. When doing so you will still be decent. But I think ultimately you'll be a bit better if you have deeper understanding of the game and rather mediocre mechanics. Ultimately all factors matter of course, but I do think decision making and build orders are extremely important in aoe3. The beauty is also that you can't just read a guide and obtain this knowledge (while honestly, in for example sc2 you can just kinda copy a build order and use the army composition that pros use and you'll cover much of the strategy required to be good), so smart players will be better than mindless bots.

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