Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Interjection »

Damn, there's 5 of these now?

I sat down and recorded a podcast with Zuta which was meant to come out before the EscapeTV Launch event. Things have been a bit hectic, but better late then never I suppose!

We talk about my new job, Smackdown, Fan patches and Amazon (might as well become a segment at this point)

Let me know any thoughts, always eager to read comments for these.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnEtSgsPgpg
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Zutazuta »

Love these guys, keep’em comin’!
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by SoldieR »

Very enjoyable. Made my snowy 1hour 45min drive back from work much more tolerable.
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by rsy »

Hah now I know what I'm doing tonight
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by SoldieR »

Inter, you mentioned you work 7 hours a day, 1 before and after and 5 hours of stream or videos. Is most of that time editing videos? Where will you be streaming, what channels? Also, need a house tour video!
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by robo »

IAmSoldieR wrote:Inter, you mentioned you work 7 hours a day, 1 before and after and 5 hours of stream or videos. Is most of that time editing videos? Where will you be streaming, what channels? Also, need a house tour video!


That's the hours we will be doing for EscapeTV (twitch.tv/escapeaoe), atm its still in set up/preparation mode.

Regular stream programs should begin next week :)
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Thrar »

I think Zuta is making some very important points regarding the fragmentation of the player/viewer base. When looking to develop the community, it's important to keep the potential audience as large as possible, otherwise it will be hard to grow and get support for larger events.
Despite all the improvements it brought to this particular sub-community, I think it's important to carefully decide when to use or not to use EP, as well as what the goals are to further develop the patch. As Zuta pointed out, events are relevant to viewers if they can recognize what's being played. If an event is played in a significantly different balance environment from the viewers' regular experience, it becomes less interesting to follow.

I would agree with Zuta's advice of doing a significant portion of Escape's AoE3 content using the official RE patch. Certainly, learning content like build orders, civ guides, matchup analyses and so forth should be based on RE, since that's where it will be valuable to the largest viewer base. Even open tournaments should be on RE in my opinion, so anyone can participate and apply whatever game knowledge they already have. I could see using EP for specific high-level tournaments or showmatches, and some wilder changes for Smackdown, but I don't think we should expect casual players to keep up with EP just so they can understand and make use of the Escape content. If necessary for tournament balance, consider banning a civ or two, or take a page out of Escape's AoE2 playbook and use vastly different maps to play to the strengths of different civs in each.

For me this also raises the question of what EP should become. As Zuta likewise pointed out, after a many years in the software industry I'd agree that it's unlikely Forgotten Empires (developers of the definitive editions) will be using any actual code from EP, even if they may be open to consider some of the balance changes. We can all lament about how unfortunate that is, but simply repeating "but they'll have to, they just have to" won't change the reality of the software development business.
If we at least accept that possibility, what is the endgame for EP? Do we want a permanently split community, with >95% of players on RE (or DE later) and a small core of experts on a significantly different EP? Are we open to eventually discontinue EP and do high-level play on RE or some other official update, in favor of a stronger, more unified community?

What would be the bare minimum of fixes we as a community would consider absolutely non-negotiably required in order to accept an official patch over EP? @Interjection, do you think it would be possible to start a conversation with Forgotten Empires over such adjustments, perhaps with Zak's and Escape's help?
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Mitoe »

I think a large part of the relatability issue can be rectified through better, more generalized casting. What I mean by that is that casters should not be talking so much about whether a civ is good or bad or which specific changes EP has made etc etc, but instead just focus on things that are applicable to every game, like why certain players may choose to go for certain plans in certain situations, and about the strengths and weaknesses of the civs in general, which is something that has not really changed all that much in EP aside from a couple of extreme cases like Sioux. This way there's still a lot of crossover between RE and EP while still improving balance.

I've been seeing a lot of people claim that there's "too many changes" on EP or that it's hard to follow all of the changes and discover how civs on EP are supposed to play compared to RE, etc. but in reality I think if you look at each civilization individually, most of them maintain pretty much the same playstyle or identity that they have on RE:

Aztec: Same as RE
British: Same as RE
China: Same as RE (except maybe in age 4?)
Dutch: Same playstyle, arguably slightly different builds. This one would be hard to translate over to RE just because of how bad Dutch is on RE.
France: Same
Germans: Same
India: Same
Iroquois: Similar builds and playstyle, but ultimately a bit different
Japan: Same
Ottomans: Very similar to RE, excepting in the case of Silk Road builds
Portugal: Similar to RE
Russia: Same
Sioux: Different
Spanish: Very similar, just stronger shipments. Also Spanish Gold--though this is rarely used anyway.


In general EP has done a good job of maintaining each civilizations uniqueness and playstyle, while also improving balance along the way. There are a few exceptions where certain builds are not possible on one of the two patches (and then there's Sioux), but most of the time anything applicable in a game on EP is applicable to a game on RE. If anything, the largest difference between RE and EP is the maps--EP maps generally promote a different playstyle than most RE maps, as they tend to have vastly more resources and consistency, which makes greedier play a lot more viable. If you were to place two civs on either patch on the same map, the differences are going to be small in most matchups.

It's worth mentioning as well that while Zuta's has some good points despite everything I've just written, he's also speaking from experience on a fanpatch that eventually turned out to be vastly different from the original patch, and having played on all 3 patches to a large extent at one point or another, I would argue civilizations were a lot less distinguishable between ASFP and RE patch than between RE and ESOC Patch.
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:I think a large part of the relatability issue can be rectified through better, more generalized casting. What I mean by that is that casters should not be talking so much about whether a civ is good or bad or which specific changes EP has made etc etc, but instead just focus on things that are applicable to every game, like why certain players may choose to go for certain plans in certain situations, and about the strengths and weaknesses of the civs in general, which is something that has not really changed all that much in EP aside from a couple of extreme cases like Sioux. This way there's still a lot of crossover between RE and EP while still improving balance.

I've been seeing a lot of people claim that there's "too many changes" on EP or that it's hard to follow all of the changes and discover how civs on EP are supposed to play compared to RE, etc. but in reality I think if you look at each civilization individually, most of them maintain pretty much the same playstyle or identity that they have on RE:

Aztec: Same as RE
British: Same as RE
China: Same as RE (except maybe in age 4?)
Dutch: Same playstyle, arguably slightly different builds. This one would be hard to translate over to RE just because of how bad Dutch is on RE.
France: Same
Germans: Same
India: Same
Iroquois: Similar builds and playstyle, but ultimately a bit different
Japan: Same
Ottomans: Very similar to RE, excepting in the case of Silk Road builds
Portugal: Similar to RE
Russia: Same
Sioux: Different
Spanish: Very similar, just stronger shipments. Also Spanish Gold--though this is rarely used anyway.


In general EP has done a good job of maintaining each civilizations uniqueness and playstyle, while also improving balance along the way. There are a few exceptions where certain builds are not possible on one of the two patches (and then there's Sioux), but most of the time anything applicable in a game on EP is applicable to a game on RE. If anything, the largest difference between RE and EP is the maps--EP maps generally promote a different playstyle than most RE maps, as they tend to have vastly more resources and consistency, which makes greedier play a lot more viable. If you were to place two civs on either patch on the same map, the differences are going to be small in most matchups.

It's worth mentioning as well that while Zuta's has some good points despite everything I've just written, he's also speaking from experience on a fanpatch that eventually turned out to be vastly different from the original patch, and having played on all 3 patches to a large extent at one point or another, I would argue civilizations were a lot less distinguishable between ASFP and RE patch than between RE and ESOC Patch.

It's true right now because GS kept the "close to the RE" policy. Unfortunately that is changing now.
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Mitoe »

Pretty sure you’re overreacting to changes that aren’t even finalized yet
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by XeeleeFlower »

I feel that it would be a big mistake to have the tournament played on RE. I, for one, will not be as enthusiastic about it and I'm not even a top player (I'm barely a player). I can only imagine how less excited top players will feel when they have to play with/against unbalanced and broken civs. Just my opinion.
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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XeeleeFlower wrote:I feel that it would be a big mistake to have the tournament played on RE. I, for one, will not be as enthusiastic about it and I'm not even a top player (I'm barely a player). I can only imagine how less excited top players will feel when they have to play with/against unbalanced and broken civs. Just my opinion.

Sorry I haven't listened to the podcast, what tournament is this?
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by Thrar »

There was a tournament announced on the Escape Gaming stream a few days back, although my concern is about content and events in general, not only this fairly small and specific tournament.

My concern is that if Escape is taking EP as a given for their content, there's a risk that a large number of potential players/viewers will just shrug and move on rather than bother with an unofficial patch that, from the view of someone using just ESO, hardly anyone plays. Of course the prospect of playing on RE sucks for people who are used to EP, but if Escape's AoE3 content isn't relatable enough to a wide audience, that audience simply won't come and the AoE3 community as a whole remains split and niche.
I think Escape's and Interjection's efforts are a great opportunity to broaden the appeal of the game and gradually establish a competitive scene more like AoE2's, with a diverse array of players, casters, and events that aren't limited by the funding players themselves are able to donate.

Until fairly recently, AoE2 had a similar split between AoC on Voobly with a user patch (mid to high level players) and the newer expansions with official balance on Steam (mainly casuals to mid level). I think part of the amazing growth of their community is because they managed to overcome this split, by working with Forgotten Empires on improving the official balance and by the WololoKingdoms mod that allows using the expansions with their balance changes on Voobly.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is ultimately, how can we achieve a similar goal and overcome the split in the AoE3 community? Surely this won't happen overnight, but what could be the steps to get there?
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Thrar wrote:There was a tournament announced on the Escape Gaming stream a few days back, although my concern is about content and events in general, not only this fairly small and specific tournament.

My concern is that if Escape is taking EP as a given for their content, there's a risk that a large number of potential players/viewers will just shrug and move on rather than bother with an unofficial patch that, from the view of someone using just ESO, hardly anyone plays. Of course the prospect of playing on RE sucks for people who are used to EP, but if Escape's AoE3 content isn't relatable enough to a wide audience, that audience simply won't come and the AoE3 community as a whole remains split and niche.
I think Escape's and Interjection's efforts are a great opportunity to broaden the appeal of the game and gradually establish a competitive scene more like AoE2's, with a diverse array of players, casters, and events that aren't limited by the funding players themselves are able to donate.

Until fairly recently, AoE2 had a similar split between AoC on Voobly with a user patch (mid to high level players) and the newer expansions with official balance on Steam (mainly casuals to mid level). I think part of the amazing growth of their community is because they managed to overcome this split, by working with Forgotten Empires on improving the official balance and by the WololoKingdoms mod that allows using the expansions with their balance changes on Voobly.

So I guess what I'm trying to get at is ultimately, how can we achieve a similar goal and overcome the split in the AoE3 community? Surely this won't happen overnight, but what could be the steps to get there?

A good start would be to avoid controversial changes I guess. I'm pretty sure that at least 50% of the community is against the bow/pike buff or the India changes or the fast age up nerf. We have a balanced patch right now (I haven't seen anyone complain about the balance on the current EP actually), so why would you change it?
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Please spare us from turning another thread into an ep balance discussion thread its getting ridiculous
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by _H2O »

5 Thoughts:
Great podcast and a really exciting time for aoe3. The prospect of a real funded LAN for the first time in 10 years and the third time ever in the history of the game is amazing.

I wouldn’t make bold statements about what the DE will and won’t do in regards to balance.

We should advocate for EP, it is a significantly better game with a lot more watchability.

We have proven that running events on EP hasn’t fragmented the community and continue to run the biggest most successful events on it.

Balance does seem quite good now. Mitoe’s comment on how civs play is a nice one and if the new changes threaten that it’s fair to slow down. (Water was a great change that opened up more play styles and map options).
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by gibson »

I dont think it's completely fair to say ep hasn't fragmented the community when it basically killed( or at the very least isolated) what was left of the (admittedly already dying) jap community.
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by Cometk »

don't see how ep killed the jp community
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by gibson »

Cometk wrote:don't see how ep killed the jp community
isolated is a better word
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by Thrar »

_H2O wrote:We have proven that running events on EP hasn’t fragmented the community and continue to run the biggest most successful events on it.

If by "the community" we're referring to the ESOC community I'd agree with that. When looking at the overall playerbase though, given that it's next to impossible to find EP games on ESO without coordinating them on the forum, there does seem to be a clear rift to me. The majority of players never find out about ESOC and thus are locked out from participating in any EP-only events.

From my point of view, while ESOC is running the biggest and most successful events, we're also running the only events so there isn't much competition for that title. In order to get viewership to the point where at least some streamers/players can economically justify the countless hours they spend, I think reaching a wider audience than the usual suspects from within ESOC would be needed.
AoE2 for comparison has several professional players and casters whose main source of income is their game content, while we can barely pay for hosting costs and the occasional small prize pool. It will take time, but I'd be very excited to see AoE3 moving into a similar direction.

_H2O wrote:We should advocate for EP, it is a significantly better game with a lot more watchability. [...] Balance does seem quite good now.

There does seem to be a pretty strong consensus on these two points. :biggrin:
I'd agree with Zuta that Forgotten Empires won't be able to integrate EP wholesale, but at the same time I think we should advocate for it when we can, and do so actively. I don't think we will get what we want if we continue to do our own thing and pretend that FE will be forced to come to us eventually.

Yourself and Interjection are some of the most well-known and reputable members of the AoE3 community, and ESOC as a whole has done a lot for the game's competitive side. Do you think there's a way we can use these new developments to start building a bridge towards RE players and Forgotten Empires as the most likely developers of any future official updates? If we were able to strike up some sort of communication process, would you be interested to be part of it?
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by Cometk »

Thrar wrote: Do you think there's a way we can use these new developments to start building a bridge towards RE players and Forgotten Empires as the most likely developers of any future official updates? If we were able to strike up some sort of communication process, would you be interested to be part of it?

a few members are already involved in this process, but you'll only get limited information due to non-disclosure agreements ^^
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by HUMMAN »

@Cometk are u trolling or what you said is legit?
If so may the Garja be with you.
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by Warno »

Made the drive to work go by quickly, thanks for posting!

IMO a RE LAN tournament would be a bad idea, I think this may be the best time to advertise the EP to people that do not play/know about the patch.
Gaining old AOE3 players attention should be the main focus here, a new patch can bring excitement back to the game.

People that have already chosen to not play the patch shouldn't be the main marketing focus.


Adding a poll during the games would offer some good market research and give good insight to the viewers thoughts:
Have you played the patch? Will you download after watching? etc
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

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Post by _H2O »

On the first point, just because people can’t play games on EP doesn’t mean they aren’t interested. It’s something that a lot of people will point to and say “EP is a failure, no one can play it”. Then they go on to say “if EP were different then it would go good and people would use it”. They are missing the point. EP adoption and ESOC map adoption is fantastic. The only issue is distribution. You won’t ever do much better.

On point 2. The studio involved isn’t what you may think and ESOC folks are involved in the discussions. My point here is not to make assumptions but to be optimistic and focus on what would be best for the game.

Thrar wrote:
_H2O wrote:We have proven that running events on EP hasn’t fragmented the community and continue to run the biggest most successful events on it.

If by "the community" we're referring to the ESOC community I'd agree with that. When looking at the overall playerbase though, given that it's next to impossible to find EP games on ESO without coordinating them on the forum, there does seem to be a clear rift to me. The majority of players never find out about ESOC and thus are locked out from participating in any EP-only events.

From my point of view, while ESOC is running the biggest and most successful events, we're also running the only events so there isn't much competition for that title. In order to get viewership to the point where at least some streamers/players can economically justify the countless hours they spend, I think reaching a wider audience than the usual suspects from within ESOC would be needed.
AoE2 for comparison has several professional players and casters whose main source of income is their game content, while we can barely pay for hosting costs and the occasional small prize pool. It will take time, but I'd be very excited to see AoE3 moving into a similar direction.

_H2O wrote:We should advocate for EP, it is a significantly better game with a lot more watchability. [...] Balance does seem quite good now.

There does seem to be a pretty strong consensus on these two points. :biggrin:
I'd agree with Zuta that Forgotten Empires won't be able to integrate EP wholesale, but at the same time I think we should advocate for it when we can, and do so actively. I don't think we will get what we want if we continue to do our own thing and pretend that FE will be forced to come to us eventually.

Yourself and Interjection are some of the most well-known and reputable members of the AoE3 community, and ESOC as a whole has done a lot for the game's competitive side. Do you think there's a way we can use these new developments to start building a bridge towards RE players and Forgotten Empires as the most likely developers of any future official updates? If we were able to strike up some sort of communication process, would you be interested to be part of it?
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Re: Zuterjection Podcast #5

Post by Jaeger »

Thrar wrote:
_H2O wrote:We have proven that running events on EP hasn’t fragmented the community and continue to run the biggest most successful events on it.

If by "the community" we're referring to the ESOC community I'd agree with that. When looking at the overall playerbase though, given that it's next to impossible to find EP games on ESO without coordinating them on the forum, there does seem to be a clear rift to me. The majority of players never find out about ESOC and thus are locked out from participating in any EP-only events.

I think your last line is wrong. If players find out about the events, they will find out about ESOC. If they want to watch/participate, they will go to the website where they can watch/register, at which point they will find out about ESOC.
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