Sioux Redesign ideas.

[deleted_user0]

sioux receiving a bison with every shipment would be cool. 1 bison in age1, 2 in age2, etc.

[JiaHoJian]

Maybe add a discovery age shipment like "For each Teepee you have, send 1 bison.", for example, if we have 5 Teepees, we get 5 bison. I think Teepee has to be more useful.

[SiegeDance]

sioux receiving a bison with every shipment would be cool. 1 bison in age1, 2 in age2, etc.

Sioux with an infinite bison card, would also work.

Also regarding free bisons, I think it would be better if the TC could spawn a few bisons in a fixed interval of time. Let's say, 1 Bison every 2 minutes. The number can go up with age, like 2 every 2 minutes, then 3 then so on. Also for every teepee built on the map, 2 additional bisons are shipped.

[deleted_user]

sioux receiving a bison with every shipment would be cool. 1 bison in age1, 2 in age2, etc.

Whoa, big brain doing big work.

Sounds cool.

[Garja]

It was an old FP change. It's a bit redundant on EP tho.

[Darwin_]

Rifle riders getting an artillery tag actually sounds kind of interesting and surprisingly logical. For the most part, I agree with Garja and others in that sioux does not need major changes, mostly just to their units (buff/change rifle riders, do something to wakina (maybe 4.5 speed and have wc aura only affect cavalry), and maybe buff war clubs and cetan bows). I believe that Teepee gather rate should be removed and their HP and attack aura's should be buffed in some way, but also changed in some way so that they don't stack so crazily. Ideally, if it were possible to code, I think that the effect of each additional teepee should decrease exponentially, i.e. 1 teepee would be +10%, 2 would be +15%, 3 would be +17.5%, etc...

[dansil92]

What if... like... sioux just got steel traps?

[Mitoe]

What if... like... sioux just got steel traps?

Someone never experienced ASFP Sioux, it seems.

I’m all seriousness though I don’t really like the idea of giving warchief civs Steel Traps.

[dansil92]

Trying to balance Sioux seems kinda weird to me since it's supposed to be mobile and hard hitting. The "vills train from embassy" card moved to discovery could be a fun economic option, or perhaps the possibility of the wise woman giving a farm travois with the bison- the 'steel traps' equivalent being found at the farm
(On a slightly historical note the poor farms of sioux is really frustrating as the sioux were famous for their three sisters agricultural system)

[Squamiger]

why does everyone constantly wanna mess with sioux, i dont even think RE sioux really needed a change. it's a funky civ, its not for every situation, and thats fine

[Garja]

The lack of steel traps is actually not a problem. TWC civs have a 1st wood upgrade which grants 20% boost for 100f 150g. It's basically the same as steel traps except it works on a resource that usually not too convenient in the current meta (based on aging up).

[SiegeDance]

Making sioux eco better late game is difficult without making arbitrary design changes as they don't have late game eco cards. But they do have some pretty good messenger cards to boost their military even more in the fortress age. These cost 1000 coins and provide upgrade for one particular unit. To invest so much coin in one unit shipment and upgrade is really bad imo as any one unit can be countered heavily. But if these cards are made less expensive while also providing less unit shipments with same upgrades, that can give some flexibility.

The follwing cards provide units as well as unit upgrades. These cards can provide long term benefits like eco cards by making the military last longer, and taking less losses.

Current (Example Changes):
6 Axe Riders plus 20% more HP (Change to 4 Axe Riders plus 20% HP for 500 food)
14 wakinas plus 20% more HP (Change to 7 wakinas plus 20% HP for 500 food)
4 Dog Soldier's plus 15% more speed (Change to 2 Dog Soldiers plus 15% speed for 500 food)
5 Tashunkes plus 25% more HP (Change to 4 Tashunkes plus 25% HP for 500 food)
6 Rifle riders plus 20% more attack (Change to 4 Rifle Riders plus 20% attack for 500 Food)

Would go well with the 1000 food shipment as well as other bison cards. As Sioux don't have a 1000 coin in the fortress, food cost would be a better idea for these cards.

And there are others that provide some resources and such with units. These can have much more immediate effect on the game. Also can provide some resource flexibility:

Current (Example Changes):
7 Axe Riders with 9 bisons (Change to 5 Axe Riders plus 9 bisons for 300 coin)
16 warclubs with 500 wood (Change to 9 warclubs plus 500 wood for 300 coin)
14 Cetans with 500 food (Change to 8 Cetans plus 500 food for 300 coin)
16 wakinas with 2 war hut travois (Change to 9 wakinas plus 2 war hut travois for 300 coin)
7 Rifle riders with 2 medicine men (5 Rifle Riders plus 2 medicine men for 300 coin)

Point is, with lower costs and lower number of units, it provides flexibility and adaptability in the fortress without investing on one unit too much. And in much later stages of the games, Sioux can have all the upgrades to compensate for the weak eco. I think these cards have much potential and can provide solution without making too much design changes. Still some designs really need to change like Rifle riders, teepes gather aura, Tashunkes.

[yemshi]

While this is a buff you forget one thing: this is no buff to their (arguably really bad) late game but a buff to one of the best age III's in the whole game.
Right now you can afford to have two upgrades of that sort in your deck: most notably the wakina and the axe rider upgrades. Yes, those cost a lot of coin but yes that is good like this. Those shipments you mention would be so high in value that Sioux's age III would only improve and become the best Fortress in the whole game. No question about that. And since you can only have 10 cards per age in your deck it doesn't even improve their late game. You'd still need 1k Wood and Food, 4+5 Axe Riders, 9 Wakina, 5 RR, CC, Mustangs and the two mentioned upgrades. You can't realistically spare any of those cards, can you?

[yemshi]

Sioux with an infinite bison card, would also work.

Also regarding free bisons, I think it would be better if the TC could spawn a few bisons in a fixed interval of time. Let's say, 1 Bison every 2 minutes. The number can go up with age, like 2 every 2 minutes, then 3 then so on. Also for every teepee built on the map, 2 additional bisons are shipped.

Infinte bison is not needed, especially not if you implement that change. It would be cut down to infinite 12 bison for one. Also you can't afford to send two bison shipments. At this stage in the game you might rather think about CC, a simple unit shipment or even mustangs.

I'd prefer umeu's version for the simple reason that both of your ideas fulfill the samw purpose but his change is easier to understand for both players and for the viewer on ESOCTV. A simple "Sioux now receives bisons with every shipment just like Germany receives Uhlans..." is more simple.


If we'd implement that change can we make the bisons herdable? I fear that two lonely bisons would act like Garja goats do now and the 15 bison shipment is already quite tough to handle at times

[SiegeDance]

While this is a buff you forget one thing: this is no buff to their (arguably really bad) late game but a buff to one of the best age III's in the whole game.
Right now you can afford to have two upgrades of that sort in your deck: most notably the wakina and the axe rider upgrades. Yes, those cost a lot of coin but yes that is good like this. Those shipments you mention would be so high in value that Sioux's age III would only improve and become the best Fortress in the whole game. No question about that. And since you can only have 10 cards per age in your deck it doesn't even improve their late game. You'd still need 1k Wood and Food, 4+5 Axe Riders, 9 Wakina, 5 RR, CC, Mustangs and the two mentioned upgrades. You can't realistically spare any of those cards, can you?

I think the axe rider, wakina, and rifle rider upgrades are more important than the tashunkes or dog soldier. No body makes tashukes anyway. One can remove 4 axe riders and 5 Rifle riders, as usually one doesn't go rifle riders (in the current design) as bow riders suffice well. This way you'll have 4 slots.

As of now, investing in those cards with 1000 coins each, considering the fact that they just upgrade one particular unit, one might as well go industrial and get champion upgrades for their units, with that much resources. For 1000 coins, you basically get 1 more axe rider than your usual 5 AR shipment, plus an upgrade that is worse than a champion upgrade for the Axe rider. Don't know if it's worth it currently. It might as well be more useful if these cards were just the upgrades with no units shipment, and with no cost at all.

Anyway, making them affordable would help them late game as their units will be more durable, hence less losses, and less burden on their weak eco. And also, there are 2 more military upgrades in the farm and plantation, which doesn't even make much sense. If they are made available in the teepees, it would be good. And they are huge upgrades, 10% hp for cavalry, and 25% attack boost for RR and WR. But that is so inaccessible. I think rather than focusing on giving them good eco options, if they had better access to these unit upgrades, that would help compensate for the weaker eco.

[SiegeDance]

Infinte bison is not needed, especially not if you implement that change. It would be cut down to infinite 12 bison for one. Also you can't afford to send two bison shipments. At this stage in the game you might rather think about CC, a simple unit shipment or even mustangs.

I'd prefer umeu's version for the simple reason that both of your ideas fulfill the samw purpose but his change is easier to understand for both players and for the viewer on ESOCTV. A simple "Sioux now receives bisons with every shipment just like Germany receives Uhlans..." is more simple.


If we'd implement that change can we make the bisons herdable? I fear that two lonely bisons would act like Garja goats do now and the 15 bison shipment is already quite tough to handle at times

Yeah it was one or the other. Easier way would be an infinite bison card. But the alternative that I proposed was to not only help their eco, but also their playstyle. Right now, the teepee aura stacking is ridiculous, and because of that, it's better if Sioux base is very tight and compact, which really doesn't suit the nomadic idea of the civilization. So my idea was to give the auras to TCs in a large radius (removing the gathering aura ofc) and make the Sioux TCs cheaper than others so they can expand easily. This way, with proper placement of TCs, you can have some stacking but not like the kind of stacking from 10 teepees. At most you might have 3 TCs if you're lucky, so even then the stacking wouldn't be ridiculous.

Also teepees, if their LOS is boosted significantly, would make a nice cheap and expendable structures to build around the maps, raiding routes, as early warning system, as an alternative to not having walls. Also, the teepees boosting the TC aura, depending upon how many are built on the map can also be a good idea,as they can expand as well be able to defend properly. I applied this same mechanic to bison spawning from the TCs. This idea was not just to fix their eco but to make their playstyle better and interesting.

Summary: The Sioux as a civ, relying on cheaper and weaker buildings to expand before others. Utilizing the big LOS of teepees and the speed of their cavalry to respond to raid threats. TCs provide hp aura (and later attack, and stack-able with other TCs). TCs also spawn bisons every few minutes. Number of teepees built in a map will increase the effect of auras and the number of bisons spawning.

[yemshi]

While this is a buff you forget one thing: this is no buff to their (arguably really bad) late game but a buff to one of the best age III's in the whole game.
Right now you can afford to have two upgrades of that sort in your deck: most notably the wakina and the axe rider upgrades. Yes, those cost a lot of coin but yes that is good like this. Those shipments you mention would be so high in value that Sioux's age III would only improve and become the best Fortress in the whole game. No question about that. And since you can only have 10 cards per age in your deck it doesn't even improve their late game. You'd still need 1k Wood and Food, 4+5 Axe Riders, 9 Wakina, 5 RR, CC, Mustangs and the two mentioned upgrades. You can't realistically spare any of those cards, can you?

I think the axe rider, wakina, and rifle rider upgrades are more important than the tashunkes or dog soldier. No body makes tashukes anyway. One can remove 4 axe riders and 5 Rifle riders, as usually one doesn't go rifle riders (in the current design) as bow riders suffice well. This way you'll have 4 slots.

As of now, investing in those cards with 1000 coins each, considering the fact that they just upgrade one particular unit, one might as well go industrial and get champion upgrades for their units, with that much resources. For 1000 coins, you basically get 1 more axe rider than your usual 5 AR shipment, plus an upgrade that is worse than a champion upgrade for the Axe rider. Don't know if it's worth it currently. It might as well be more useful if these cards were just the upgrades with no units shipment, and with no cost at all.

Anyway, making them affordable would help them late game as their units will be more durable, hence less losses, and less burden on their weak eco. And also, there are 2 more military upgrades in the farm and plantation, which doesn't even make much sense. If they are made available in the teepees, it would be good. And they are huge upgrades, 10% hp for cavalry, and 25% attack boost for RR and WR. But that is so inaccessible. I think rather than focusing on giving them good eco options, if they had better access to these unit upgrades, that would help compensate for the weaker eco.

4 AR are needed in most cases, 5 RR is a supreme shipment used to defend vs musk rushes and musk cannon pushes. You cannot afford to not have them in your deck. (btw i forgot 3 Dogs, change that with 1k food) or one of the ups.

[dansil92]

Doesnt sioux have that card that lowers coin cost shipments or nah? Buffing that to an.actually meaningful number like 50% or even more could give a greedy high risk shipment.

I also think the vills train from embassy card in discovery could give a booming option that is unique and nomadic influenced

[SiegeDance]

Doesnt sioux have that card that lowers coin cost shipments or nah? Buffing that to an.actually meaningful number like 50% or even more could give a greedy high risk shipment.

That cost reduction is for IRO and Aztec. More for Iro as they become dirt cheap through the National Unity card, which makes them like 250 coin each. Imagine 250 coin for 5 mantlets and 6 rams or 10 forest prowlers with 2 travois or 1 covered wagon with 10 villagers but it's for a selected cards.

Cost reduction for aztec isn't that big, but applies for many cards. It's like 25% or something.

And surprisingly, Sioux with probably the worst eco of all three doesn't have such cost reduction for these 1000 coin cards. Broken civ really. The developers probably were running out of time and hurried the civ design to hit the deadline or something.

[SiegeDance]

4 AR are needed in most cases, 5 RR is a supreme shipment used to defend vs musk rushes and musk cannon pushes. You cannot afford to not have them in your deck. (btw i forgot 3 Dogs, change that with 1k food) or one of the ups.

It's not very often you see heavy musk cannon army in fortress. It's usually skirm/goons/falcs or the civilization specific alternatives of the same combo. That really makes the Rifle riders kinda situational, not the kind of impact a fortress unit should have on the match like skirms, goons, arty. Sioux already invest on Bow riders from the start of the game, and wakinas upon reaching fortress. Also axe riders are there. I don't see a point for Rifle riders the way their design is atm.

Sioux doesn't have eco, and can't even utilize the military upgrades available to them realistically. Definition of a broken civ.

[yemshi]

5 RR is needed.

[Garja]

RR is just a good shipment to have both in terms of resources and use. It's basically 5 goons but also have extra multipliers vs artillery and heavy infantry. It's not ideal in skirm/goon wars but mixed in with BR they do work as normal goons.

[Hazza54321]

sioux receiving a bison with every shipment would be cool. 1 bison in age1, 2 in age2, etc.

That without the teepee buff would be great honestly, they kinda get the shipment penalty german have because converting guardians and not building houses so i like buffed shipments.

[SiegeDance]

RR is just a good shipment to have both in terms of resources and use. It's basically 5 goons but also have extra multipliers vs artillery and heavy infantry. It's not ideal in skirm/goon wars but mixed in with BR they do work as normal goons.

Rifle riders are not good. They have extra multipliers but they also get hard countered by more units. RR are more vulnerable to any ranged unit than goons. Skirms counter them even harder than they counter goons as RRs have no ranged resistance. And for that matter vulnerable to any ranged attack. Even falcs will have good time sniping them from distance, as no ranged resistance and mediocre hp. It's a practically useless for a unit that is supposed to be Sioux most advanced gunpowder unit.

[Garja]

They are not good in skirm/goon wars, I agree. I don't usually employ them in fact. But saying they're not good it's straight up false. It's objectively a premium unit, just like JPK for aztecs or mantlets for iro. They have a more specialized use but still awesome stats and unique multipliers. And, actually, they see quite a frequent use despite being a niche unit. There are situation where RR are strictly superior to goons. For example they're better than goons vs China or Spain. They also usually better against all those civs that you expect to fight fortress vs colonial, such as Russia, Japan and Brits.
In any case, I was talking about the shipments in itself. It's basically just as good as a 5 goons shipment but with the extra perks of being useful to hold musketeer+cav attack.