China Starting Crates Bug

[JiaHoJian]

Hello everyone,
I was trying to understand how starting crates of each civilization works. I found that Chinese starting crates are always the same, 200 food, 300 wood, 6 villagers and 1 goat. However, the opponent's civilization sometimes has 1 more crate while China remains the same with no additional benefit.
For example, Dutch starts with 6 crates or 7 crates, but Chinese always has only 5 crates, 6 villagers and 1 goat. Isn't this a bug? I don't see a reason why other civilizations sometimes can have 1 more crate while China remains the same.
I have tested this on both the latest RE and the latest EP, and both RE maps and ESOC maps, they are all having this bug.
By the way, here is the table that I made, this is in RE, I was trying to generalize how starting crates are determined.
1. civilization's inherent starting crates and villager count

Civilization	food	wood	gold	villager count
British	200	200	0	6
Dutch	0	100	400	6
French	300	100	0	6 (5 cdbs)
German	200	100	0	6 (3 settler wagons)
Ottoman	0	300	0	6
Portugal	200	100	0	7
Russia	500	100	0	5
Spain	200	100	0	6
Iroquois	200	200	0	5
Sioux	300	0	0	5
Aztec	300	200	0	5
China	200	300	0	6
India	100	300	0	6
Japan	400	200	0	6

2. random starting crates
There are total of 5 different random crates. In every game, the game will choose one kind of random crates randomly and every civilization except China receives the same number of random crates.
5 kinds of random crates:
(1) 100 food
(2) 100 wood
(3) 100 gold
(4) 100 food 100 wood
(5) 100 food 100 gold
total starting crates = civilization's inherent starting crates + random crates + map's natural starting crates
Note: Chinese starting crates are always the same in every game and does not receive the random crates.

[GiBthedurrty]

china has fixed crates

[EAGLEMUT]

This is not a bug, it is intended for China crates to be unaffected by randomness.

[Thrar]

5 kinds of random crates:
(1) 100 food
(2) 100 wood
(3) 100 gold
(4) 100 food 100 wood
(5) 100 food 100 gold

I don't think the last two are accurate. Do you have a source for that?

As far as I know there is always exactly one mirrored random crate, which can be food, wood, or gold. For any given civ, on a map that doesn't grant extra crates the total number of starting crates doesn't change. The only thing that's different for China is that there's no randomness in what type of resource you get.

On maps that do grant bonus crates, the bonus crates are given to all civs including China. Perhaps that's where your options 4 and 5 come from, they were played on a map with a bonus food crate?

[JiaHoJian]

Hi,
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I am aware of that China has fixed crates. We can have two matches like so:
Match 1: Dutch starts with 100 wood and 500 gold and Chinese starts with 200 food and 300 wood
Match 2: Dutch starts with 100 food, 100 wood and 500 gold and Chinese starts with 200 food and 300 wood
So other civilization has 40% chance of having 1 more crate against China. What is the logic behind this from a game design standpoint?

[deleted_user0]

Hi,
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I am aware of that China has fixed crates. We can have two matchs like so:
Match 1: Dutch starts with 100 wood and 500 gold and Chinese starts with 200 food and 300 wood
Match 2: Dutch starts with 100 food, 100 wood and 500 gold and Chinese starts with 200 food and 300 wood
So other civilization has 40% chance to have 1 more crate against China. What is the logic behind this from a game design standpoint?

that consistency in itself is a bonus. China does have the extra random crate, it just always has the wood crate. The trade off for this consistency is that it never has a better random crate combination, but it also never has a worse random crate combination. Otherwise you could see china crate combinations such as 200f200w100c, 300f200w, 300f300w, 300f200w100c. With the exception of 300f300w, these are all a lot worse than 200f300w and would basically render china unplayable as they'd suffer even bigger and worse discrepancies between crate combinations than Japan and India, which are already notoriously bad in this department.

Other civs have the chance to get 100f more than china does, but they also have the chance to get a worse crate combination. Because for most civs, +100f or +100c are just strictly worse starts than +100w, while china always has +100w. So China also has a 40% chance to get a better crate combination than the other civ, and 20% chance of it being equal.

[gibson]

Hes right you can get an extra food crate if its not a food start. So for example you can have a 600f 200w start or a 600f 100w start. In the first start its 500f 200w+ the extra 100f crate and the second one is just straight 600f 100w with no extra crate.

[JiaHoJian]

5 kinds of random crates:
(1) 100 food
(2) 100 wood
(3) 100 gold
(4) 100 food 100 wood
(5) 100 food 100 gold

I don't think the last two are accurate. Do you have a source for that?

As far as I know there is always exactly one mirrored random crate, which can be food, wood, or gold. For any given civ, on a map that doesn't grant extra crates the total number of starting crates doesn't change. The only thing that's different for China is that there's no randomness in what type of resource you get.

On maps that do grant bonus crates, the bonus crates are given to all civs including China. Perhaps that's where your options 4 and 5 come from, they were played on a map with a bonus food crate?

I tested it out myself, I haven't seen any post that generalized how starting crates are determined. I was testing on RE standard maps, my sample size is 50. In these 50 games, I saw there are total of 5 different kinds of random starting crates. When a player gets 100 food, 100 wood random crates, other players also get 100 food and 100 wood as well except China. I haven't encountered any other exception yet.

[Mitoe]

5 kinds of random crates:
(1) 100 food
(2) 100 wood
(3) 100 gold
(4) 100 food 100 wood
(5) 100 food 100 gold

I don't think the last two are accurate. Do you have a source for that?

As far as I know there is always exactly one mirrored random crate, which can be food, wood, or gold. For any given civ, on a map that doesn't grant extra crates the total number of starting crates doesn't change. The only thing that's different for China is that there's no randomness in what type of resource you get.

On maps that do grant bonus crates, the bonus crates are given to all civs including China. Perhaps that's where your options 4 and 5 come from, they were played on a map with a bonus food crate?

The last 2 are accurate.

It basically works as though there are 2 groups of random crates: 1) Wood, Gold, or nothing, and 2) Food or nothing

You can get any combination except for double nothing

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well, it's very unfair but people don't care and are fine with it lol.

[JiaHoJian]

Hi,
Thanks for the replies. Yes, I am aware of that China has fixed crates. We can have two matchs like so:
Match 1: Dutch starts with 100 wood and 500 gold and Chinese starts with 200 food and 300 wood
Match 2: Dutch starts with 100 food, 100 wood and 500 gold and Chinese starts with 200 food and 300 wood
So other civilization has 40% chance to have 1 more crate against China. What is the logic behind this from a game design standpoint?

that consistency in itself is a bonus. China does have the extra random crate, it just always has the wood crate. The trade off for this consistency is that it never has a better random crate combination, but it also never has a worse random crate combination. Otherwise you could see china crate combinations such as 200f200w100c, 300f200w, 300f300w, 300f200w100c. With the exception of 300f300w, these are all a lot worse than 200f300w and would basically render china unplayable as they'd suffer even bigger and worse discrepancies between crate combinations than Japan and India, which are already notoriously bad in this department.

Other civs have the chance to get 100f more than china does, but they also have the chance to get a worse crate combination. Because for most civs, +100f or +100c are just strictly worse starts than +100w, while china always has +100w. So China also has a 40% chance to get a better crate combination than the other civ, and 20% chance of it being equal.

I agree with you. I think RTS needs a little bit of RNG so that players have to react differently each time.
China has fixed starting crates, this means China cannot tell what kind of starting crates the opponent might get in the beginning of the game. Other civilizations follow the same rules, so other civilizations can tell what kind of starting crates the opponent gets by looking at the their own starting crates. So this is also one downside of China due to its fixed starting crates.

[deleted_user]

I think an 8 vill wonder, a free unit wonder, and the highest DPS LI in age 2 (kind of) makes up for it.

It's the biggest cheat civ I know how to play.

[dansil92]

Yeah in a matchup like china vs germany you are already at a scouting disadvantage as china as you have NO idea what the opponent has for starting crates- and that can be really frustrating to plan for. Is the dreaded wood start going to rear its ugly head or is it the slower and less scary coin start?

@deleted_user4 technically arent cetan the highest dps LI in colonial? (Besides abuse guns)

[lemmings121]

@deleted_user4 technically arent cetan the highest dps LI in colonial? (Besides abuse guns)

those arent LI

[Garja]

Fixed crates is mostly an advantage China has. So, regarding balance, it's unfair for other civs.
Design wise is also bad, because there is a consistent and logical rule concerning the extra random crates.

[deleted_user]

Fixed crates is mostly an advantage China has. So, regarding balance, it's unfair for other civs.
Design wise is also bad, because there is a consistent and logical rule concerning the extra random crates.

But it works, so

[dansil92]

@deleted_user4 technically arent cetan the highest dps LI in colonial? (Besides abuse guns)

those arent LI

"Infantry formerly known as Light Infantry"

[SoldieR]

Yeah in a matchup like china vs germany you are already at a scouting disadvantage as china as you have NO idea what the opponent has for starting crates- and that can be really frustrating to plan for. Is the dreaded wood start going to rear its ugly head or is it the slower and less scary coin start?

@deleted_user4 technically arent cetan the highest dps LI in colonial? (Besides abuse guns)

If it's a 200w start, ger will make a tp. You'll know before 1:30 min into the game. Also, you have an extra scout. It's more difficult for ger to scout. In fact, ger always has a disadvantage in scouting as they only have one scout and always needs to build a tp, either at start or in transition.

[Dsy]

When people say Japan weak vs rushes you need to question: "which Japan? 400f 200w or 500f 300w?" Since the age up time difference is (if i remember correctly) something like 15 sec...
It makes no sense at all that random crates (resources) exist in a competitive game. Something like in lol you would start with 600gold instead of 500 some times. Just imagine commentator would say: "Faker was lucky with 600 gold start so he won the lane".
Also it would be a great balance tool for civs.
Unfortunately people dont realize these things here.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Fixed crates is mostly an advantage China has. So, regarding balance, it's unfair for other civs.
Design wise is also bad, because there is a consistent and logical rule concerning the extra random crates.

But it works, so

No, it doesn't work.
As a result you start with -100w sometimes.

[Hazza54321]

I think the ability to go tp everygame if they want is pretty good no?.. ehehehe

[Kaiserklein]

We could maybe give china a fixed extra 100f crate when other civs start with an extra crate?

[Hazza54321]

I think china are strong enough as it is, the goat sorta compensates anyway

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah it's strong, but regardless it's kind of absurd that other civs sometimes get an extra 100 res. Obviously china has to get a fixed 300w start, cause 200w would be horrible and 400w op, but we can add a food crate to compensate a little bit.

[Garja]

Fixed crates is mostly an advantage China has. So, regarding balance, it's unfair for other civs.
Design wise is also bad, because there is a consistent and logical rule concerning the extra random crates.

But it works, so

No, it doesn't work.
As a result you start with -100w sometimes.

Most of times you start with better crates. Bear in mind one of the China fixed crate is an extra 100w that other civs don't have by default.

China fixed create is just a low variance gain, vs high variance of other civs. Except they chose to give them a wood crate rather than for example a food crate.