how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:
Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:I just want to emphasize a very important point that GS made. Skill and knowledge are two very different things and are relative.

For Diarouga knowledge IS skill in AoE3. He's made it very clear many times on this forum that he thinks mechanics are basically meaningless.

Not exactly.
I think that strategy is more important than mechanics but knowledge and strategy aren't the same.

Knowledge is included in strategy but reacting and innovating are also a very important part of strategy.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Mitoe »

If strategy were more important than mechanics and APM then anyone I coached would be easily major+. Sadly, this is not so: they simply cannot keep up with everything they need to do or think about, or do things as efficiently or effectively as required.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by gibson »

poor callen
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:If strategy were more important than mechanics and APM then anyone I coached would be easily major+; but sadly, it is not so.

As I said, strategy is more than just learning a build order lol.
I remember I played the China vs Brit MU vs Callen 2 years ago and I first won 3-0, then I told him exactly what to do (VC FF) and I lost the next game because the strat just better.

Same goes for the game I lost vs bwinner. He didn't play better mechanically (although I might have outplayed him if I practiced more), but he got a huge advantage because of superior strategy, and it snowballed.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Mitoe wrote:If strategy were more important than mechanics and APM then anyone I coached would be easily major+; but sadly, it is not so.

As I said, strategy is more than just learning a build order lol.
I remember I played the China vs Brit MU vs Callen 2 years ago and I first won 3-0, then I told him exactly what to do (VC FF) and I lost the next game because the strat just better.

Same goes for the game I lost vs bwinner. He didn't play better mechanically (although I might have outplayed him if I practiced more), but he got a huge advantage because of superior strategy, and it snowballed.

Callen isn't bad mechanically. He's not major/lt colonel because he's got poor strategy or poor mechanics; he just needs to not troll as much and have some more confidence and he'd probably reach colonel.

I don't necessarily agree with the bwinner game. I don't think his strategy was really better than what you did--the problem is more that Ottomans are just poorly designed. It's very difficult to be proactive against them because of how fast they are and how overwhelming their military is in the first 5 - 8 minutes of the game. True, though, you kinda played into his hands by playing equally passive yourself.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah callen is basically colonel tbh, he just needs to not delete stuff and quit that easily, and do serious builds
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Post by Cometk »

this is now an uplifting callen appreciation thread. all off-topic posts will be deleted
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Goodspeed »

Since this game isn't that mechanically challenging, most of the difference is made in decision making I think. Maybe less so in a mirror meta, but with the current civ rules I don't think mechanics win tournaments. Lack thereof will certainly lose tournaments though :P

Edit: Callen is great
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Kaiserklein »

I still think someone with perfect mechanics would win any fight regardless of the unit composition/build order, just cause with perfect macro you get more out, and with perfect micro the split fire etc would be absolutely insane. But for us, yeah strats matter a lot

edit: Callen is not French, which is a good thing
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Mitoe »

Goodspeed wrote:Since this game isn't that mechanically challenging, most of the difference is made in decision making I think. Maybe less so in a mirror meta, but with the current civ rules I don't think mechanics win tournaments. Lack thereof will certainly lose tournaments though :P

Mechanics/APM open up more options which is huge. Decision making is important of course but if you've got poor macro or sloppy execution then it doesn't matter whether you knew what the correct choice was because you will miss out on that opportunity.

I think in a low-lag or lag-free environment there's a lot more room for micro to matter in AoE3 than people give it credit for--though I will grant that it is still less than a game like StarCraft.


Edit: Callen is a talented poet.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Goodspeed »

I'm not saying mechanics aren't important. I'm saying that's not usually where the difference is made on a top level, because at that level everyone has it down to enough of an extent that it doesn't win games as much as superior decision making and a better game plan.

Callen is a good person and tragically underrates himself.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea I agree with GS. You need to have a good macro but it's not that hard. Then strategy makes the difference.

edit: Callen should resign less.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by XeeleeFlower »

Callen is a beautiful old soul.

/thread
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But our past is a ghost fading out that at night it’s still haunting.

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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Sargsyan »

Callen Collon ?
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by bwinner »

Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Mitoe wrote:If strategy were more important than mechanics and APM then anyone I coached would be easily major+; but sadly, it is not so.

As I said, strategy is more than just learning a build order lol.
I remember I played the China vs Brit MU vs Callen 2 years ago and I first won 3-0, then I told him exactly what to do (VC FF) and I lost the next game because the strat just better.

Same goes for the game I lost vs bwinner. He didn't play better mechanically (although I might have outplayed him if I practiced more), but he got a huge advantage because of superior strategy, and it snowballed.

Callen isn't bad mechanically. He's not major/lt colonel because he's got poor strategy or poor mechanics; he just needs to not troll as much and have some more confidence and he'd probably reach colonel.

I don't necessarily agree with the bwinner game. I don't think his strategy was really better than what you did--the problem is more that Ottomans are just poorly designed. It's very difficult to be proactive against them because of how fast they are and how overwhelming their military is in the first 5 - 8 minutes of the game. True, though, you kinda played into his hands by playing equally passive yourself.

Diarouga made obvious misstakes in his strat this game :
He was confused with wood age up because he knows I usually tower ff in this match->he made an early rax for producing no unit and was very late in age 3 without defending his TP.
Then I believe he should have sent a little group of goons raiding all game cuz I had nothing to catch them. He was probably waiting for mams but I never sent them.
Then he still had an opportunity but made culv/falc instead of cuirs. I guess it's because he is not used to 20 range abus who destroy artillery.

Edit : Callen est mon cherie.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Jaeger »

Mitoe wrote:If strategy were more important than mechanics and APM then anyone I coached would be easily major+. Sadly, this is not so: they simply cannot keep up with everything they need to do or think about, or do things as efficiently or effectively as required.

But what about someone like Boneng?

Edit: Callen is an ingenious mathematician.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Shikari »

Mechanics are superior. Proof ai beats star craft 2 players ez using apparently not so good unit. With a single unit composition basically. With pure insane micro.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Hazza54321 »

Strategy is way more important than mechanics in aoe3
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Shikari wrote:Mechanics are superior. Proof ai beats star craft 2 players ez using apparently not so good unit. With a single unit composition basically. With pure insane micro.

Well it is sc2, and in sc2 mechanics are more important than strategy.
This is just irrelevant in aoe3.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by lordraphael »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Shikari wrote:Mechanics are superior. Proof ai beats star craft 2 players ez using apparently not so good unit. With a single unit composition basically. With pure insane micro.

Well it is sc2, and in sc2 mechanics are more important than strategy.
This is just irrelevant in aoe3.

only partly true. If you look at sc2 pros at the highest level strategy/ tactics is probably still the defining factor, becasue every top sc2 player has great mechanics.however at lower level mechanics are certainly the defining factor, pretty sure you can have garbage strategys if your mechanics are top and you have at least a rough understanding of the game you can come very far.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Hazza54321 »

Fancy getting smashed in sc2 rapha?
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

lordraphael wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Shikari wrote:Mechanics are superior. Proof ai beats star craft 2 players ez using apparently not so good unit. With a single unit composition basically. With pure insane micro.

Well it is sc2, and in sc2 mechanics are more important than strategy.
This is just irrelevant in aoe3.

only partly true. If you look at sc2 pros at the highest level strategy/ tactics is probably still the defining factor, becasue every top sc2 player has great mechanics.however at lower level mechanics are certainly the defining factor, pretty sure you can have garbage strategys if your mechanics are top and you have at least a rough understanding of the game you can come very far.

It's true that strategy makes the difference between the top GM, but with just god like mechanics you would be top GM.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by gibson »

You can't just make a blanket statement like "at the highest level strategy is the most important" or " at the highest level mechanics are the most important". It just depends on the player. While they all have a crazy high baseline level of both, some players really excel in strats and others in mechanics, it just depends on the specific player.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well you can say mechanics are more important at perfect level, just because it's impossible to scout perfectly in this game, which means strats are gonna end up being rock paper scissor anyway.
At our imperfect level though, yeah, both are important, as well as adaptation.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

gibson wrote:You can't just make a blanket statement like "at the highest level strategy is the most important" or " at the highest level mechanics are the most important". It just depends on the player. While they all have a crazy high baseline level of both, some players really excel in strats and others in mechanics, it just depends on the specific player.

My point is that in sc2, below GM, the games are almost always going to be decided on mechanics (strategy is important too, but being a strategy god doesn't matter if you die to a ling rush because you can't micro or if you have no units because you stack 2000 minerals in bank), while at GM level, although some games are decided on micro, strategy is way more important.

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