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Hungary Dsy
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18 Apr 2019, 15:13

The nice thing about self learning AI that you cant know what outcome it brings to the table. So you cant know if its beating the best players by micro or macro. Only 1 thing is sure: At one point it cant be beaten by humans.
For saving humanity, we need to introduce more RNG into the games so some times We can also win. I advice you increasing the amount and variety of the random creates for this reason!
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Bolivia tedere12
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18 Apr 2019, 15:27

Hazza54321 wrote:Strategy is way more important than mechanics in aoe3

micro is more important. Most high level players have decent micro/unit control tho so the effect of micro on sucess tends to be underplayed. When I got to play vs h2o on qs I realised that. He did his howdah build and even though I knew it was coming and countered him, I got outmicroed to oblivion and lost every game.
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Turkey HUMMAN
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18 Apr 2019, 15:42

few aoe pros have good strategy and bad mechanics. In fact most matchs are determined by simple mistakes, such as losing vills to raid, bad army micro etc. Most of the players do standart builds anyway.
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United States of America _H2O
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18 Apr 2019, 22:32

tedere12 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Strategy is way more important than mechanics in aoe3

micro is more important. Most high level players have decent micro/unit control tho so the effect of micro on sucess tends to be underplayed. When I got to play vs h2o on qs I realised that. He did his howdah build and even though I knew it was coming and countered him, I got outmicroed to oblivion and lost every game.


HowdahBoutThat! Micro matters a ton. The howdahBoutThat games make a pretty powerful statement about that point. I was tracking my value in vil seconds from those games. Vs lots of high PR players I was getting 20:1 or 30:1 villager second advantages from just micro.

I see four key elements to gameplay.
Micro - unit control in fights
Macro - spending resources
Strategy - your build order
Tactics - in game decision you make. Which fights do you take? where are your units? This one is where micro and strategy meet.

These elements are all critical and work together. If your micro sucks you will make different tactical choices. These choices change how intimidating you are and how often you can win or make come backs. One persons window of opportunity is another persons fight to run from.

A lot of times too players talk past each other between “strategy” and “micro”. It’s too simple to isolate them.
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European Union Scroogie
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19 Apr 2019, 17:31

_H2O wrote:
tedere12 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Strategy is way more important than mechanics in aoe3

micro is more important. Most high level players have decent micro/unit control tho so the effect of micro on sucess tends to be underplayed. When I got to play vs h2o on qs I realised that. He did his howdah build and even though I knew it was coming and countered him, I got outmicroed to oblivion and lost every game.


HowdahBoutThat! Micro matters a ton. The howdahBoutThat games make a pretty powerful statement about that point. I was tracking my value in vil seconds from those games. Vs lots of high PR players I was getting 20:1 or 30:1 villager second advantages from just micro.

What do you mean by vill second advantages "20:1" that you got (how do you get a 20:1 vill second advantage?) and how do you track that? Would be interested in that to track my own improvement. :D
Stuck at PR20. Pick up lvl10 HC India Sepoy rush = winstreak.
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Malawi princeofcarthage
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19 Apr 2019, 18:50

How come we don't have matty1248 on any list, he is the best deccan player of all time. Period.
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19 Apr 2019, 21:55

Scroogie wrote:
_H2O wrote:
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HowdahBoutThat! Micro matters a ton. The howdahBoutThat games make a pretty powerful statement about that point. I was tracking my value in vil seconds from those games. Vs lots of high PR players I was getting 20:1 or 30:1 villager second advantages from just micro.

What do you mean by vill second advantages "20:1" that you got (how do you get a 20:1 vill second advantage?) and how do you track that? Would be interested in that to track my own improvement. :D


After a game you can use age community to get the unit kill stats. Do some math on the resources in units you lost vs their loses.
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European Union Scroogie
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20 Apr 2019, 11:14

_H2O wrote:
Scroogie wrote:
Show hidden quotes

What do you mean by vill second advantages "20:1" that you got (how do you get a 20:1 vill second advantage?) and how do you track that? Would be interested in that to track my own improvement. :D


After a game you can use age community to get the unit kill stats. Do some math on the resources in units you lost vs their loses.

Great thank you!
Stuck at PR20. Pick up lvl10 HC India Sepoy rush = winstreak.
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New Zealand zoom
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20 Apr 2019, 16:27

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Netherlands blackwidow
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21 Apr 2019, 03:11

lordraphael wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Well it is sc2, and in sc2 mechanics are more important than strategy.
This is just irrelevant in aoe3.

only partly true. If you look at sc2 pros at the highest level strategy/ tactics is probably still the defining factor, becasue every top sc2 player has great mechanics.however at lower level mechanics are certainly the defining factor, pretty sure you can have garbage strategys if your mechanics are top and you have at least a rough understanding of the game you can come very far.


Just here to point out that even though its not a huge difference at top lvl, there are people relying heavily on their mechanical skill and it works. (all of eu terrans, lots of eu zergs, soO, Zest, bunny..)

But in the end its hard to say what makes the difference. You can see clear differences in both mechanical and strategic skill in the best players. Also the two both go hand in hand with decision making, which then links them all together. So one can make the other seem more impactful when its not necessarily the case.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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21 Apr 2019, 08:23

Dsy wrote:The nice thing about self learning AI that you cant know what outcome it brings to the table. So you cant know if its beating the best players by micro or macro. Only 1 thing is sure: At one point it cant be beaten by humans.
For saving humanity, we need to introduce more RNG into the games so some times We can also win. I advice you increasing the amount and variety of the random creates for this reason!
Why wouldn't we be able to tell? In the AlphaStar games, we definitely could. It won by micro.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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21 Apr 2019, 08:27

Yea, AlphaStar was really bad strategically. Its macro was perfect of course, but since the best players' macro is great it doesn't make a huge difference, its insane micro however, was just game changing.
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No Flag ovi12
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21 Apr 2019, 13:22

Well iirc that was only after 10 days of training, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a strategy god after 200 days of training.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
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France [Armag] diarouga
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21 Apr 2019, 13:39

ovi12 wrote:Well iirc that was only after 10 days of training, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a strategy god after 200 days of training.

Nah, it was more like months of training.
Also the AI had unrealistic APM and used a hack (the equivalent of zoom hack). It lost to a 2nd tier GM after the hack was removed.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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21 Apr 2019, 14:51

None of you retards compare to fuking lukas_l99
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United States of America GiBthedurrty
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21 Apr 2019, 14:58

k
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Sweden tabben
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21 Apr 2019, 15:02

GiBthedurrty wrote:k

K
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*Jeri lames a forward agra vill with nootka*
ramex19 (veni): such nooby shit i will lame you with nats forever
United States of America kaister
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21 Apr 2019, 15:11

tabben wrote:
GiBthedurrty wrote:k

K

k
Austria Jerimuno
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21 Apr 2019, 15:13

kaister wrote:
tabben wrote:
GiBthedurrty wrote:k

K

k

K
Great Britain Hazza54321
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21 Apr 2019, 15:15

Jerimuno wrote:
kaister wrote:
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k

K

k
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United States of America GiBthedurrty
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21 Apr 2019, 15:16

ktraln xD
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France [Armag] diarouga
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21 Apr 2019, 15:29

Jerimuno wrote:
kaister wrote:
Show hidden quotes

k

K

k
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Armenia Sargsyan
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21 Apr 2019, 16:22

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Jerimuno wrote:
Show hidden quotes

K

k

Potassium
#trainableSpahi
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No Flag ovi12
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21 Apr 2019, 16:48

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Well iirc that was only after 10 days of training, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a strategy god after 200 days of training.

Nah, it was more like months of training.
Also the AI had unrealistic APM and used a hack (the equivalent of zoom hack). It lost to a 2nd tier GM after the hack was removed.

I’m pretty sure they said that they were having bad results for months, but only recently they had really cracked the problem, and since then, it had only 10 days to train. I know about the zoom hack and apm, but if the 10 day thing is true, I think it’ll likely become a strategy god and be able to beat people without zoom hack and such. That’s just speculation from me, I guess well have to wait and see.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
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France [Armag] diarouga
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21 Apr 2019, 16:52

ovi12 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Well iirc that was only after 10 days of training, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a strategy god after 200 days of training.

Nah, it was more like months of training.
Also the AI had unrealistic APM and used a hack (the equivalent of zoom hack). It lost to a 2nd tier GM after the hack was removed.

I’m pretty sure they said that they were having bad results for months, but only recently they had really cracked the problem, and since then, it had only 10 days to train. I know about the zoom hack and apm, but if the 10 day thing is true, I think it’ll likely become a strategy god and be able to beat people without zoom hack and such. That’s just speculation from me, I guess well have to wait and see.

I don't know. In term of options, Starcraft is much much more complicated than chess and go, thus the computers really can't "solve" the game. Also the computer was like really bad strategically, not even master level, and the difference between a low master and a top GM is huge.

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