how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Netherlands Goodspeed
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Goodspeed »

Neither of those options are as strong on the current patch.
The point is that still, today's players are better because they have more knowledge.
And my point is that this is irrelevant. Let me ask you this: If you were to rank the smartest people of all time, would you rank every current physics graduate above Einstein?
I think the question asked in the OP clearly aims at talent and relative dominance, not knowledge. Any comparison based on knowledge would unfairly favor currently active players.

Current Carlsen would beat any old chess pro at their peak but you will find very few people who would call him the best chess player of all time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... ut_history
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by YungPinch »

Is there a bracket for the WCG 2007 / 2008? I cant find one
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by deleted_user0 »

To be fair, you said this, and hes just giving an example that refutes it.

And, honestly, I'm not at all convinced anyone currently active would beat peak grunt (or peak H2O) even on the current patch and with current knowledge

Im prett sure that that isnt true, though it as diarouga says that adv tapers off after a while as players figure iut whats happening. Like when we were training for pk4 and i beat ryan in otto mirrors and otto vs iro before he figured out a counter.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

@deleted_user use quote, it took me time to understand your point.

Anyway, grunt and _H2O were more dominant, true.
My point is that Mitoe, raphael, kaiser and me would beat 2007 grunt or 2010 _H2O.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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umeu wrote:To be fair, you said this, and hes just giving an example that refutes it.

And, honestly, I'm not at all convinced anyone currently active would beat peak grunt (or peak H2O) even on the current patch and with current knowledge

Im prett sure that that isnt true, though it as diarouga says that adv tapers off after a while as players figure iut whats happening. Like when we were training for pk4 and i beat ryan in otto mirrors and otto vs iro before he figured out a counter.
Yeah I'm not convinced of this. You are talking about specific and abusive build orders, as was diarouga, but those options no longer exist on this patch. I think superior mechanics and decision making might go a long way on this patch, even if you don't know everything about the current meta. Also, consider that this would always be a best of X scenario and there are only so many strategies that will catch a peak grunt off guard. He wasn't just mechanically unmatched, he also had excellent decision making. And you should consider the possibility that current players are unequipped to handle some of the more aggressive builds that were popular back then, because they have no practice against them.

I edited H2O in there afterwards, my initial thought was that grunt was so dominant that I think the idea of him still beating currently active players on the current patch is being dismissed too easily. Ryan wasn't as dominant and focused on 1 very specific build order himself, so yeah his 2008 Japs wouldn't necessarily make it very far nowadays.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:To be fair, you said this, and hes just giving an example that refutes it.

And, honestly, I'm not at all convinced anyone currently active would beat peak grunt (or peak H2O) even on the current patch and with current knowledge

Im prett sure that that isnt true, though it as diarouga says that adv tapers off after a while as players figure iut whats happening. Like when we were training for pk4 and i beat ryan in otto mirrors and otto vs iro before he figured out a counter.
Yeah I'm not convinced of this. You are talking about specific and abusive build orders, as was diarouga, but those options no longer exist on this patch. I think superior mechanics and decision making might go a long way on this patch, even if you don't know everything about the current meta. Also, consider that this would always be a best of X scenario and there are only so many strategies that will catch a peak grunt off guard. He wasn't just mechanically unmatched, he also had excellent decision making. And you should consider the possibility that current players are unequipped to handle some of the more aggressive builds that were popular back then, because they have no practice against them.

I edited H2O in there afterwards, my initial thought was that grunt was so dominant that I think the idea of him still beating currently active players on the current patch is being dismissed too easily. Ryan wasn't as dominant and focused on 1 very specific build order himself, so yeah his 2008 Japs wouldn't necessarily make it very far nowadays.


thats just not true, they exist. just ask hazza about sepoy urumi for example. aztec fi is still dangerous even now. otto revo is still a menace if you have never seen it well executed. such strats will always exist anyway. in any case, it's not really my argument, just saying you can't bring up that player X will win despite knowledge, and then say but you can't talk about knowledge, when someone posts an example to refute your claim. That was my point more than anything else. I'm not particularly interested in this discussion, as the only constant that I've observed is pretty much this, people will always claim the hero that they saw the most when they were interested in that particular sport/game/etc the most. So almost anyone following football now will choose messi or ronaldo, anyone around 50-60 will say maradonna, pele or cruijff, in 10 years, they will say mbappe etc.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by bwinner »

Goodspeed wrote:
umeu wrote:To be fair, you said this, and hes just giving an example that refutes it.

And, honestly, I'm not at all convinced anyone currently active would beat peak grunt (or peak H2O) even on the current patch and with current knowledge

Im prett sure that that isnt true, though it as diarouga says that adv tapers off after a while as players figure iut whats happening. Like when we were training for pk4 and i beat ryan in otto mirrors and otto vs iro before he figured out a counter.
Yeah I'm not convinced of this. You are talking about specific and abusive build orders, as was diarouga, but those options no longer exist on this patch. I think superior mechanics and decision making might go a long way on this patch, even if you don't know everything about the current meta. Also, consider that this would always be a best of X scenario and there are only so many strategies that will catch a peak grunt off guard. He wasn't just mechanically unmatched, he also had excellent decision making. And you should consider the possibility that current players are unequipped to handle some of the more aggressive builds that were popular back then, because they have no practice against them.

I edited H2O in there afterwards, my initial thought was that grunt was so dominant that I think the idea of him still beating currently active players on the current patch is being dismissed too easily. Ryan wasn't as dominant and focused on 1 very specific build order himself, so yeah his 2008 Japs wouldn't necessarily make it very far nowadays.

As you said befor (but not going far enought Imo) even in mechanics, old pro suck compared to new one. This mostly because of 1st person streaming on twitch. There is plenty of trick you discover watching stream that none of this old pro knew about. For instance I haven't seen anyone using pull trick befor 2015 while it's a very important game mechanic now. As it is for plenty of other stuff like fighting with vils (grunt/flooky/NP probably never did that), or using a correct hotkey setting.
Some old pro may have more apm than most people here but that doesn't make them better player if they do full bullshit with this apm.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Mitoe »

Not really trying to refute your statement, but they definitely fought with villagers.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:just saying you can't bring up that player X will win despite knowledge, and then say but you can't talk about knowledge, when someone posts an example to refute your claim.
Not what happened? I wasn't replying to that part, as indicated by what I quoted. This because I'm not really interested in that discussion either, it was only a side note.

I only said I'm not convinced, by the way. My opinion is not that grunt would beat everyone despite knowledge, rather that the possibility is being dismissed too easily ITT. He had a 95% win rate. 95%. He lost 1 in 20 games in a field that was much more competitive than right now.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Post by Aizamk »

Pull trick was kind of known about back then too. I remember reading a forum post when I was PR20 or so (not too long ago then) about moving units in a certain way to make them catch up. It just wasnā€™t abused to the current extent.

btw itā€™s important to revise the 95% win metric for todayā€™s standards because itā€™s pretty much an era of close to perfect information vs an extremely secretive player in an era with limited information (hence making monopolies easier)
oranges.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by nightscr3am »

surprised no-one mentioned ruthless__ or gg magic, both were really good

also most players are competent with at least a few builds on a few civs these days because of the tournament rules, it was different back then
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Mitoe »

The main thing that made the pull trick more relevant was the the discovery that you can remove the units that are responsible for the pulling from the formation and the units being pulled will still continue sprinting, allowing you to cover a lot more ground than you would with a normal pull
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Its a feature
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Post by Aizamk »

btw 36drew's casts are a pretty good point of reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYSYUIKzMls

if you watch the video linked you can observe that mechanically, their micro was ok, but macro was a very different thing altogether. prolonged periods of idle villagers, slow reactions to raids, batches not finished even though the resources are in bank etc. could be intentional but yea.
oranges.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Jaeger »

Mitoe wrote:The main thing that made the pull trick more relevant was the the discovery that you can remove the units that are responsible for the pulling from the formation and the units being pulled will still continue sprinting, allowing you to cover a lot more ground than you would with a normal pull

Oh so you pull, then select the forward units, tell the to walk forward, and pull again?
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Mitoe »

ovi12 wrote:
Mitoe wrote:The main thing that made the pull trick more relevant was the the discovery that you can remove the units that are responsible for the pulling from the formation and the units being pulled will still continue sprinting, allowing you to cover a lot more ground than you would with a normal pull

Oh so you pull, then select the forward units, tell the to walk forward, and pull again?

Exactly that, yeah. Although it doesn't work if you're only pulling 1 unit, regardless of how many units are pulling him--they must remain in formation in this case.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Aizamk »

was just watching this one now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1HB4VlzLjg
and you can see that on the other hand, samwise's mechanics were impressive.
oranges.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Goodspeed »

I wouldn't draw too many conclusions based on a couple of games
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Well, it shows that players' macro is much better today. And it's not "just a couple of games", in all the games we see that they make a lot of macro mistakes.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Hazza54321 »

Multitasking seemed poor back then too but i guess its not relevant in 1v1
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Players have improved in all areas over the years. But you're still comparing the wrong thing.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

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Hazza54321 wrote:Multitasking seemed poor back then too but i guess its not relevant in 1v1

Someone is a little biased towards team games :hmm:
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Hazza54321 »

Wheres the top 10 of all team players thread! Fucking discrimination!
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by Goodspeed »

That's a tough one. Not nearly as much data. And shouldn't you look at the best teams instead of individual players? That's kind of the point of team games.
I think Japanese teams were winning most of the team events in later years. Before that, Skwzz and Hope won most of them iirc. Hope I think was the most consistent in fielding top teams.
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Re: how would you rank the top 10 aoe3 players of all time

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea, you should look at the teams, not individual players then.

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