Deleting units in casted games

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No Flag Jaeger
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Deleting units in casted games

Post by Jaeger »

I was just watching Hazza vs Soldier (Aztec vs Dutch), and just before Hazza lost his envoy to Soldier's lion, he deleted it so that Soldier wouldn't get the double xp. Unfortunately, some of the xp went to the observer, but Hazza thought that "bug" had been fixed, so it wasn't a big deal.

Now that seems like a really good strategy; if you are India vs Aztec and about to lose your Agra, you could just delete it. Super influential.

Now if you don't delete it, you are cheating yourself; and if you do delete it, you are cheating your opponent. What should the rules be?
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by deleted_user »

Always feign ignorance
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by gibson »

I mean its obviously fine if its not casted. In a casted game it seems kinda cheat
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by Jaeger »

gibson wrote:I mean its obviously fine if its not casted. In a casted game it seems kinda cheat

But like I said, if you can't do it during casted games, it's like cheating youself. It's like saying "ok guys, X civ is not allowed to take the 90w treasure but the other civ is allowed, be nice"
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by gibson »

ovi12 wrote:
gibson wrote:I mean its obviously fine if its not casted. In a casted game it seems kinda cheat

But like I said, if you can't do it during casted games, it's like cheating youself. It's like saying "ok guys, X civ is not allowed to take the 90w treasure but the other civ is allowed, be nice"
Yea it sucks for sure but if you do it youre abusing a bug
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by Hazza54321 »

i honestly didnt realise the obs still got the xp thought was fixed and i do apologise for it, not that it was that influential but i do agree something needs to be done about it
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by gibson »

Yea you weren't doing it on purpose to try to abuse the bug and it didn't really matter, just in general if someone wanted to abuse it it could be a very easy and annoying thing to abuse.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by musketeer925 »

Yeah, it would be cool if we could fix the XP being awarded to the right player(s) is spectator games, maybe with UHC? @EAGLEMUT

However, this does beg the question, is deleting a legit strategy if XP were to be awarded correctly?
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by Jaeger »

musketeer925 wrote:Yeah, it would be cool if we could fix the XP being awarded to the right player(s) is spectator games, maybe with UHC? @EAGLEMUT

However, this does beg the question, is deleting a legit strategy if XP were to be awarded correctly?

Haha yeah I would be for making Aztec get double xp whenever you delete something. I mean it's not perfect, because sometimes you just wanna delete stuff in good faith (like you want to relocate one of your 7 BH's) but I think anything like that would be so late in the game that nobody would care. Or I guess it could just be viewed as a civ bonus for aztec, that if you delete stuff vs them, they get double xp.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Ideally deleting in the range of aztec wc aura should grant the same 2x or 3x xp bonus as it does if the unit is killed. It's simply not okay to be able to totally negate the wc aura, which is part of the azzy civ bonus, by simply deleting buildings/units before they die. It's a huge nerf to aztecs and most likely an overview from the devs.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by deleted_user0 »

gibson wrote:I mean its obviously fine if its not casted. In a casted game it seems kinda cheat


vs aztecs its never fine tbh. even if not casted, you can just delete a unit or building to deny the xp bonus.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by gibson »

I mean I can understand that it should be fixed but I don't see an argument for saying it's people shouldn't be allowed to delete their own units lol. It's like saying you can't go age four as jap with the shogunate on re. Anyway I imagine it shouldn't be too hard for ep to fix.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

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Post by musketeer925 »

gibson wrote:I mean I can understand that it should be fixed but I don't see an argument for saying it's people shouldn't be allowed to delete their own units lol. It's like saying you can't go age four as jap with the shogunate on re. Anyway I imagine it shouldn't be too hard for ep to fix.

May be doable, but definitely harder than you think. I believe this will require changes to the game's built-in XP-granting behavior.

There is work going on behind the scenes on EP that has enabled us to make core game engine behavioral changes like this. This work resulted in recent changes on the EP beta, like automatic spectator UI and fixing alt D. This has required a huge effort in reverse engineering the game's internals, and then developing a framework for hooking and altering them with injected code.

I haven't been too involved in it myself, but we need to give a big thanks to @Kevsoft and @EAGLEMUT for their efforts on this.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

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Post by knusch »

i strongly believe it should be a banable offense if someone delets his/her own units/buildings in order to gain an advantage over their opponent :uglylol:
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Kaiserklein wrote:Ideally deleting in the range of aztec wc aura should grant the same 2x or 3x xp bonus as it does if the unit is killed. It's simply not okay to be able to totally negate the wc aura, which is part of the azzy civ bonus, by simply deleting buildings/units before they die. It's a huge nerf to aztecs and most likely an overview from the devs.

Yea I agree.
I've said that multiple times, it's cheating to me. It makes no sense, getting more bonus is your civ bonus, and you even pay for the 50/50/50 upgrades to get x3 exp and people shouldn't be able to deny that.
It would be cool if the tournament admins could add a rule about this for the tournament.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by Dolan »

It's not the player's fault, this is how the game engine was meant to work: it splits XP revenue from a deleted unit evenly between the other participants in an FFA game.

The problem is not that the game engine does this, it's what it's supposed to do. This problem was created by the fact that UI observer maps need to use FFA mode, because the game lacks a special "observer" role.

So any fix would have to either create an observer, non-playing game role, that can see the map and player stats, or to modify the FFA game mode to work differently when another toggle is selected (like game difficulty "X"). I'm not even sure a fix is possible, since it would involve overriding significant chunks from the game engine.

Also, if you're forcing players to not delete their units when it's in their interest to do so, you are forcing them to not play to their advantage and possibly lose games because of that. So it's probably a lesser evil to have the opponent gain less XP from a sacrificed unit.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

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Post by Kaiserklein »

It's totally fine to delete a unit to get an advantage, like deleting a very low hp unit to get important pop space, or deleting a building before engaging a fight to improve the pathing. That's just smart, and it's sacrificing some of your stuff for your own good.

Deleting a unit to deny the xp aura is different, it's abusing a flaw in the game that results in totally negating a big part of a civ bonus.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by edeholland »

There is a new EP Beta released where the bug with the observers is fixed: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 67#p363267.

Whether it should be possible to delete your own buildings/units while in range of the Aztec hero to deny XP, remains to be seen. I'm interested to hear whether it should or shouldn't be fixed.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It definitely should be fixed. It makes no sense to deny a civ bonus by abusing a lame mechanic.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by EAGLEMUT »

I'd say this is intended behavior, which is why it would be hard to "fix" it and "fixing" it would actually result in a less expected, weird game behavior.

The XP aura doubles experience bounty from kills made by own friendly units in a radius of 24 around the Aztec Warchief. A deleted enemy unit is technically neither ever under the effect of the aura (as it affects only allied Aztec units), nor can it be usually concluded that a deleted unit would have definitely been killed by a unit under the aura's effects, had it not been deleted.

So what would make a deleted unit eligible for granting the XP aura bonus? Is the Warchief supposed to have another aura that targets enemy units within 24 radius and "marks" them for the deletion check? Is it supposed to be more than 24, since allied units under the aura effect can obviously attack and kill enemy units further away under normal circumstances? Are all allied units affected by the XP aura supposed to have their own auras that mark enemy units around them for deletion check..? Does this really sound like something expected, something that should be happening in the game?

Let's say you think it does. Moving on, let's take a look at how does this affect the game when there are, say, three players in a match (FFA), rather than just two. As p1 and p2 are fighting each other under an Agra fort, an Aztec Warchief with a Coyotemen from p3 walks by. For some reason, p2 deletes his Agra fort; probably because he's a lamer and wants to deny some XP from the attacker. This results in XP split between the remaining players, but wait, apparently the Aztec player now gets doubled-split-XP just for scouting around. Is this correct, intuitive game behavior? Well, I don't think so.

The most "clean" way of handling this issue is how the game already does it. Did a unit under the aura effect get the kill? No? End of story.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by musketeer925 »

@EAGLEMUT do you think, though, that deleting something to avoid your enemy getting the double XP is a legitimate strategy?

It seems like your complaints are just because you are having a hard time with a solution. I actually think your "friendly units in range of the Aztec warchief have their own auras" is actually the closest thing to a good solution in your post.

A slightly better solution, I think, would be to check for units who are in range of warchief Aura and have been assigned a BUnitAction to attack the unit being deleted (which solves your Aztec scouting situation).
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by Garja »

Best solution is to issue a warning for this behavior.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by musketeer925 »

Garja wrote:Best solution is to issue a warning for this behavior.

Great for tournament games, but the patch is for more than that.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

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Post by HUMMAN »

How about putting a cooldown for deleting buildings, same as repair that while enemy is attacking you cant delete your building.
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Re: Deleting units in casted games

Post by Garja »

musketeer925 wrote:
Garja wrote:Best solution is to issue a warning for this behavior.

Great for tournament games, but the patch is for more than that.

We are talking about casted games? Even in a normal obs I don't think it's worth to work for a technical solution.
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