Sunday Smackdown #10 - Factory Wagon Start

[vividlyplain]

Can't pull that on China or Spain though.

[Goodspeed]

Would HC really be that good? I feel like in age1, 10 vills might be better than a heavy cannon every 2 min.
The HC would reach your base at maybe 3 min game time. You would be aged up by then (right?), and could have a 3 huss shipment on the way and a hidden stable somewhere. He won't have your TC or factory down in time and after you killed the HC you have a huge advantage.

The rule seems unnecessary. I think (relatively) early HC could actually be interesting, and probably not worth it.
Maybe I'm off thinking you'd be aged up by 3 min though.

[deleted_user0]

Would HC really be that good? I feel like in age1, 10 vills might be better than a heavy cannon every 2 min.
The HC would reach your base at maybe 3 min game time. You would be aged up by then (right?), and could have a 3 huss shipment on the way and a hidden stable somewhere. He won't have your TC down in time and after you killed the HC you have a huge advantage.

The rule seems unnecessary. I think (relatively) early HC could actually be interesting.
Maybe I'm off thinking you'd be aged up by 3 min though.

You could just wall a little box with gate to have your HC safe next to your TC for 70w

[pecelot]

yeah you could wall and pull vills to kill the HC, also if you choose to invest in faster age-ups while your opponents goes for heavies, you have the technological advantage and can quickly make a couple of hussars to deal with the threat; sure, HCs apply serious damage to cavalry, but still, 3 horsemen should be enough to destroy the artillery piece

[edeholland]

I'm actually getting more interested in seeing age 1 HC versus age 1 resource boost. Restricting HC to age 4 is basically a FI series with Deccan/Plymouth start.

[Mr_Bramboy]

You start with a wagon. You can place the factory as close as possible and have a cannon in base at ~2:30.

[Goodspeed]

Then the wagon has to travel and you're still losing time. Either way the HC is in enemy base around 3:00 and they are aged, or almost aged, by then. Civs like Russia who start with a lot of food crates would easily age before 3:00, even, and 5 coss would be on your HC before it does anything.
The more I think about it the more I lean towards not making the HC.

[dansil92]

I think restricting cannon production to when you've aged to colonial would be the most entertaining series (SO MUCH CAV), fortress age would be more balanced (culvs, vet huss, mamelukes etc.) And industrial is just gonna be fairly normal game with a roidy eco and industrial agenda

[gibson]

Also does a heavy cannon take 2 minutes to train standard or 2 minutes after you research the upgrade that speeds it up? Maybe you don't switch to heavy cannons til after you start aging, but a factory produces 660 res per 2 minutes which is less than 7 musk. It's a no brainer to make heavies.

[vividlyplain]

So many interesting take son this... do we get to see more than one series?

[edeholland]

For reference @gibson

	Default	With mass production
Heavy cannon	115 seconds	86 seconds
Resource gathering in that time	633	474
Resource gathering in that time with upgrade	822	617

Upgrade cost
Food upgrade (Cannery): 250 , 250
Wood upgrade (Water power): 250 , 250
Coin upgrade (Steam power): 250 , 250
Training time upgrade (Mass production): 300 , 300

[Goodspeed]

Also does a heavy cannon take 2 minutes to train standard or 2 minutes after you research the upgrade that speeds it up? Maybe you don't switch to heavy cannons til after you start aging, but a factory produces 660 res per 2 minutes which is less than 7 musk. It's a no brainer to make heavies.

Your mistake is that you are putting the value of resource production in units only. In the early game your resource investments are mostly going to tech and economy, making 850 resources much more valuable than would seem if you put it as "7 musks".

As the game goes on, making HC becomes better and better. I think if you don't block them until age IV, you will see some disagreements between players about when they become worth it. It will be interesting to see that dynamic.

[Jaeger]

Nah you just train heavies no matter what, I'm quite sure. Even if you have to actually chop for an extra house in age 1 for the heavy, and age up extra late. you can build a small wall around your heavies and you'll have the safest base ever lol. Then once you're up and get a small mass of musks, you just auto win any fight because you have more heavies than your opponent.

Just throwing out scenarios here, but maybe by the time youre ready to push out the other guy is age 3 with culvs otw?

[gibson]

Also does a heavy cannon take 2 minutes to train standard or 2 minutes after you research the upgrade that speeds it up? Maybe you don't switch to heavy cannons til after you start aging, but a factory produces 660 res per 2 minutes which is less than 7 musk. It's a no brainer to make heavies.

Your mistake is that you are putting the value of resource production in units only. In the early game your resource investments are mostly going to tech and economy, making 850 resources much more valuable than would seem if you put it as "7 musks".

As the game goes on, making HC becomes better and better. I think if you don't block them until age IV, you will see some disagreements between players about when they become worth it. It will be interesting to see that dynamic.

So if you have factories on res and are investing into "tech and economy" what are you gonna do when 2 heavy cannons are knocking on your door at 6 minutes?

[deleted_user0]

Ship 5 spahi?

[edeholland]

Looks like it's time to test. Has the Smackdown channel on EP been updated already? @EAGLEMUT

[Goodspeed]

Also does a heavy cannon take 2 minutes to train standard or 2 minutes after you research the upgrade that speeds it up? Maybe you don't switch to heavy cannons til after you start aging, but a factory produces 660 res per 2 minutes which is less than 7 musk. It's a no brainer to make heavies.

Your mistake is that you are putting the value of resource production in units only. In the early game your resource investments are mostly going to tech and economy, making 850 resources much more valuable than would seem if you put it as "7 musks".

As the game goes on, making HC becomes better and better. I think if you don't block them until age IV, you will see some disagreements between players about when they become worth it. It will be interesting to see that dynamic.

So if you have factories on res and are investing into "tech and economy" what are you gonna do when 2 heavy cannons are knocking on your door at 6 minutes?

Kill them with your 20 huss? After aging up at 3 min and shipping resources, by 6 min you would easily have 20.
Or, like umeu suggested, you could be in fortress age by 5 min and ship a bunch of cav.

[gibson]

I doubt you'll have 20 huss at 6 minutes. 10 or probably 15 seems more accurate. You'll just lose to a similar amount of musk or pike with hc shooting from the back, spahis seems more realistic.

[Goodspeed]

I doubt you'll have 20 huss at 6 minutes. 10 or probably 15 seems more accurate.

You can have 10 huss at 6:30 without a factory...
I think switching to HC after queueing the colonial age might be worth it. But if your opponent does it slightly later but in time to have the HC out for defensive purposes, he's ahead.

[lesllamas]

I doubt you'll have 20 huss at 6 minutes. 10 or probably 15 seems more accurate.

You can have 10 huss at 6:30 without a factory...
I think switching to HC after queueing the colonial age might be worth it. But if your opponent does it slightly later but in time to have the HC out for defensive purposes, he's ahead.

Doesn’t the factory complicate this for euro and twc civs though? If you’re aging so much earlier that’s time you otherwise won’t be making vills. Obv the factory is a huge economic advantage but it seems like asian civs would have a big advantage being able to 1) queue vills while aging and 2) start getting wonder bonuses earlier like summer palace.

I guess maybe euro civs like brit could make up for it by doing a bonkers fast manor boom, or any civ with vill shipments can save the age 1 shipment and send 5v / 4cdb / 3sw immediately in colonial.

[Goodspeed]

Yeah I don't really see standard EU civs like French/German being competitive here. But that's with or without the HC rule.
Otto might do well. Brit and Dutch too, possibly.

[EAGLEMUT]

@edeholland Not yet.

[Dolphincup]

Sioux seems like a good option too. sioux can bring warchief cards, use factory res for firepit BB, and spawn the warchief until heavy cannons are dead. then opp is forced to use factory for eco, and sioux can build heavy cannon / rifle rider comp

[pecelot]

forward factory inc

[Imperial Noob]

forward factory inc

factory walking time