Starting crates (again)

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Re: Starting crates (again)

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Post by deleted_user0 »

When pineapple pizza is used as a metaphor, you know garja has joined the discussion!
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Garja »

That's not going to happen, because it's a dumb change. Compromising a nice and consistent crate system just to please your sense of balance. There like 200 better changes even if those civs actually needed such amount of nerf.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote: even if those civs actually needed such amount of nerf.

To be honest, considering your understanding of the current meta I don't think you're qualified to claim what needs to be nerfed.

PS : This is an authorithy argument.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Kaiserklein »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
1) it breaks the current balance. Huge change, we have to rebalance ep around it.

This is wrong.

Right, after like 6 patches balanced around random crates, switching to fixed crates is not gonna do any harm. It will miraculously improve the balance, even if it's an obvious nerf/buff to some civs. Diarouga simulated it in his brain, and concluded balance will be better, let's go for it!

2) removes an age 1 skill, macroing depending on the crates/treasures you get. Believe it or not but even some top players still mismacro on some crates starts with some civs.

Authority argument/personal opinion. Half of the community thinks that it doesn't remove an age 1 skill.

Ok then tell me why some top players still mess up the age 1 on various crates start if it's not a skill. Or why sometimes I get away with going for hd + tp on some maps with wood start as fr, for example, while some others don't.

3) it's just not the spirit of aoe3. There's lots of random stuff and starting crates are just one of them.

Authority argument

No? The point is that if you fix crates you also have to fix all the other stuff I listed (frozen maps, tp lines etc). There's no reason to fix crates and not everything else. It's pretty obvious aoe3 is not a game where everything is fixed, and coming from someone who wants ep to stay close to re, it makes no sense.

4) it's obviously boring and leads to less diverse builds.

Subjective opinion since only 2 or 3 civs have (really) different builds depending on the crate start

We don't play the same game I guess. I have different builds for ger and fr on tp start already. Brit has it too with tp for 3v vc. Iro and japs. India with tp for gfa. Dutch going market. I'm not gonna list all civs, but come on...

5) it's a lazy and ugly solution.

Again, there's no argument. Half of the community believes that it is a good solution.

Removing a feature, instead of balancing around it, is objectively ugly and lazy. I think the example I gave with treasures was good enough... Would you rather keep only lvl 1 treasures or have wadmalaw ones? Lvl 1 on every map would be easy and lazy, but very ugly and boring. Balancing treasures or crafting new ones is harder but so much more elegant.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote: even if those civs actually needed such amount of nerf.

To be honest, considering your understanding of the current meta I don't think you're qualified to claim what needs to be nerfed.

PS : This is an authorithy argument.

You are the one who didn't play for long eh
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by iCourt »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iCourt wrote:What if Germany/French only had a random food or coin start? It's a lot more coding but doable.

That would seriously improve the tournament balance, but it's not going to happen because the Germany players obviously don't want their best civ to get nerfed.


It's not really a nerf. It's still random, just limits what you get from 3>2. You also keep away from fixed crates in the process. Killing two birds with one stone.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Garja »

That's just dumb. Why those 2 civs should be an exception? Because Diarouga said so? Lol, guy would get destroyed by people like Somppu with India TP start and has the courage to say what's viable and what's not.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by iCourt »

Why is China an exception? Why anything? I pretty much only offer suggestions. You're under no obligation to accept them. I offer what's possible is all.

I'll have my opinions for sure, and it's completely fine to disagree. I'm very open to disagreement.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

1) Yep. With food crates for everybody the game would be balanced. Food start has always been the reference, coin start fucks the game because it slows down some civs by a fair margin, and wood start allows age 1 TP which is a huge issue.

2) Because they have bad macro? But that's regardless of the crate start. Some guys just fuck their macro, that's it, crate wouldn't change that.

3) The difference is that you can easily fix crates, while there's no good way to fix treasures (and in general, they are less game breaking). Also the difference is that treasures are "random", the expectation is zero, you can have more treasures, less treasures or the same treasures, so in the end it's fair.
With crates it is different when you play vs France/Germany. If you get coin or food start, the MU is even, if you get wood start you're fucked. The frustration comes from the fact that random crate advantages France and Germany. If you think that crate start is ugly, then we could nerf France and Germany so that they're slightly worse on food/coin start, and better on wood start, but it's not going to happen.
In many MUs against Germany, it's 50/50 on food/coin start and 40/60 on wood start, how is that acceptable? Before the game starts, you're basically praying not to get a wood start.

4) Yea, 3SW/700c ff on TP start but that's totally broken, and it shouldn't be a thing because it's op. Brit has TP with 3v/VC but it's also op (almost Germany level).
Nobody goes India gfa, and it's almost the same as standard build. Dutch market is also just the same build order as Dutch without market...

5) So what's your solution to fix wood start laming? You're saying that fixed crate is a bad change, but you don't suggest solutions.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:That's just dumb. Why those 2 civs should be an exception? Because Diarouga said so? Lol, guy would get destroyed by people like Somppu with India TP start and has the courage to say what's viable and what's not.

I would destroy Somppu with India TP start, and I have in the past.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

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Re: Starting crates (again)

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Post by iCourt »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:3) The difference is that you can easily fix crates.


This is the main reason anyone should at least be open to it. It's super super easy to implement. It also is easy to test as it's early game. It's something you can see if it's even needed or warranted every game before the 5-6 minute mark.

Again I don't think every civ should be implemented. But there is really no reason not to at the very least try and test it. If it doesn't work out you can just as easily revert it.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Goodspeed »

It's either every civ or no civ. China's crate start basically means that if you play that civ you roll dice on who starts the game 1 huge treasure ahead.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

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Goodspeed wrote:It's either every civ or no civ. China's crate start basically means that if you play that civ you roll dice on who starts the game 1 huge treasure ahead.


So how is that every civ or no civ? China is a civ and is always down 1 crate. And why exactly does it have to be that way? Why can't it be 2 civs or 10 civs?

Why is that the correct way to balance? Why can't it be different if it works?

Please respond to each question individually if you are able to. I'd love to hear a different, yet insightful, opinion.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Riotcoke »

How do you standardise the crate start, give every civ it's best crate start so Germay 200 wood, or make every civ have their worst crate start?
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by iCourt »

You don't. Some starts are the best for a civ but could be too strong. You balance based on what's best for civ on current meta.

For example. French best start is 200 wood start but it might be better to start them with additional gold or food crate and negate the wood crate.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Mitoe »

I don’t think it has to be every civ or no civ. It should be whatever gives each civ the greatest degree of agency and decision making at the beginning of the game.

It seems that people who are against fixed crates mostly don’t like being forced into doing the same thing every game, and I agree with this completely. I don’t want to play France and have my opponent know 100% of the time that I have to go build a Trading Post before everything else on top of me having no real decisions to make because the 1 option is just too good or something.

Unless you’re Garja, then you just want consistency because otherwise it’s bad for game design, apparently.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by deleted_user »

Goodspeed wrote:It's either every civ or no civ. China's crate start basically means that if you play that civ you roll dice on who starts the game 1 huge treasure ahead.

No one wins with China so it's n.b.d..
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Re: Starting crates (again)

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Post by fightinfrenchman »

How many pages of starting crate discussion do there need to be before we all agree to kill ourselves?
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:I don’t think it has to be every civ or no civ. It should be whatever gives each civ the greatest degree of agency and decision making at the beginning of the game.

It seems that people who are against fixed crates mostly don’t like being forced into doing the same thing every game, and I agree with this completely. I don’t want to play France and have my opponent know 100% of the time that I have to go build a Trading Post before everything else on top of me having no real decisions to make because the 1 option is just too good or something.

Unless you’re Garja, then you just want consistency because otherwise it’s bad for game design, apparently.

Your opponent already knows what you're going to do depending on the crate start.
With a wood start you're always going to build a TP as France. With a gold start you're going to make a market, and with a food start age 13 vills.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Mitoe »

@[Armag] diarouga It would be different because your opponent would know before the game starts with fixed crates.

Also chopping 200w for a TP as Fre/Ger is a bit underrated.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:@[Armag] diarouga It would be different because your opponent would know before the game starts with fixed crates.

Which is the point of fixed crates? You don't want to agree on a MU against Germany and then get a wood start.
I would be fine with random crates if you knew the crate start before the game begins, but that it is impossible.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Goodspeed »

iCourt wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:It's either every civ or no civ. China's crate start basically means that if you play that civ you roll dice on who starts the game 1 huge treasure ahead.
So how is that every civ or no civ? China is a civ and is always down 1 crate. And why exactly does it have to be that way? Why can't it be 2 civs or 10 civs?

Why is that the correct way to balance? Why can't it be different if it works?

Please respond to each question individually if you are able to. I'd love to hear a different, yet insightful, opinion.
I would answer each question individually but they are kind of all the same question. Either way it all comes down to the fundamental problem with having fixed crates for one civ and random crates for another:

The problem is in the difference in strength of the civs purely based on a dice roll. I gave the example of China because it illustrates it perfectly. You say China is always "down" one crate, but that's not true. Ignoring the detail that actually they would be down an extra (food) crate in 2/5 cases, you can just as easily argue they are always up a crate. The problem isn't in whether they are up or down a crate, the problem is the difference.

It's especially apparent when you consider a game between Germans and China. If Germans get a wood start, they get an early TP. If they get a coin start, they're unhappy. China gets the same crates either way. This severely impacts the result of the game. It can be argued that it is actually the difference between Germans winning the match up and losing it, and it's purely based on chance. That is poor game design.

Getting a wood start on a TP map is similar to almost +1 vill for most civs. And it's (relatively) okay if both civs get it, but because we have a civ like China with their static crates, we have this problem. That is why you either give every civ fixed crates, or none of them.

And stopping to think about that extra food crate for a sec: The difference between only a coin start and a wood+food start is 152 villager seconds. Even without the potential TP start, that's like having +1 vill for most of discovery age.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Mitoe wrote:@[Armag] diarouga It would be different because your opponent would know before the game starts with fixed crates.

Which is the point of fixed crates? You don't want to agree on a MU against Germany and then get a wood start.
I would be fine with random crates if you knew the crate start before the game begins, but that it is impossible.

I feel like you overrate Germany on a TP start a bit lol. It's good for sure, but it's not much different from Germany on a non-TP start.
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Re: Starting crates (again)

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Mitoe wrote:@[Armag] diarouga It would be different because your opponent would know before the game starts with fixed crates.

Which is the point of fixed crates? You don't want to agree on a MU against Germany and then get a wood start.
I would be fine with random crates if you knew the crate start before the game begins, but that it is impossible.

I feel like you overrate Germany on a TP start a bit lol. It's good for sure, but it's not much different from Germany on a non-TP start.

TP start simply allows you to go to fortress without making concessions, while you would have to delay your age up or skip 700w without the TP.
Germany's weakness is the colonial age, and when playing against Germany you want to damage them before they reach fortress, and that becomes almost impossible with a TP start, how is this not game breaking?

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