User avatar
Finland breeze
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1639
ESO: PrinceOfkabul

01 Jun 2019, 09:31

Before starting the topic, let's start with what is added and removed from the civ

Portuguese

Nerfs

100 food removed from starting crates
-
It was decreased to balance the 80f vills in the past, but right now it also prevents porto from doing 10/10 anymore which was a useful strategy on RE

Dragoon ranged resistance decreased to 20% (from 30%)
-
Not fan of having pretty strong goons, but really, is there a logic at nerfing the only unit the civ has? While cassadores are pretty much useless until age4 with upgrade stuffs the change is just overkill.

“Hire Egyptian Mamelukes” shipment decreased to 4 Mamelukes (from 5)
-
(It was one of the most important card every porto player had in their deck, now people don't even send it anymore, also the 1k coin cost wasnt nerfed accordingly.

“Genitours” shipment effect to +4 Dragoon range (from +6)
-
Another blow to the only decent unit of the portugal,

Buff(s)

Settler cost reduced to 85f (from 100f)
-
if we calculate the benefit of the change with -100food start, at the 10:00 minute mark of the game you generally have 28/30 villagers as porto, let's say you have 30 vills at that time, with making every vill you suppose to get +15 food benefit, before calculating the income, let's remove starting vills 30 - 7 = 23 And now remove the -100f effect 100 ÷ 15 which is around 7 villagers, so let's continue to calculate, 25 - 7 = 16
16 x 15 = 240 food



Let's be realistic, would you rather having these all nerfs just for 240food which needs 10 minutes to arrive completely, or just to have chance to revert all these changes?

Conclusion about Portuguese is they are not buffed compared to RE and it's current situation right now isn't better than what it was on RE.
My suggestion is that this situation should not be underestimated and it should be fixed immidiately. Thank you for reading ;)



Source : https://wiki.eso-community.net/ESOC_Pat ... on_history
bwinner wrote:I was happy when breeze posted a rec where he beat me once, which means he believes I am good.
User avatar
European Union KoenigRother
Skirmisher
Posts: 103
ESO: Darky_soocer
Location: Berlin

01 Jun 2019, 09:39

270 food
notoric treehugger
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9798
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

01 Jun 2019, 09:46

I also think that RE Port is better than EP Port on normal maps (such as Kam or Arkansas). The civ is almost unplayable (as it was on the RE actually) on these maps currently.
It is hard to balance the civ though because Port is very strong on water maps and on big TP maps so a late game buff would make the civ op. I guess the solution would be to make the civ faster on normal maps, or less map dependant, but this would also affect water and TP maps.
User avatar
Argentina Riotcoke
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 2145
ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Best County in the UK

01 Jun 2019, 10:27

I think it's best to balance ports just for water maps, just like you'd balance Germany for tp maps, especially in a tournament format where you know what map you're playing.
Islas Malvinas son Britanicas
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 743
ESO: HUMMAN

01 Jun 2019, 10:31

5 mams was not OP for port, it was a trump card like boyars. Sad it's nerfed cause of Otto.
Image
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7671
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

01 Jun 2019, 10:32

The maths are off, as ports at 10 min you have 40v, even if you stayed age 2 and have 2 tcs. If you aged to fortress you probably have more. So the buff at that point is at least roughly 15*33 = 495f. So basically, you saved at least 400f (after removing the starting crate) by that time, which is definitely not nothing. It means ports can age a bit faster or get a bit more units out early on. On the other hand, the nerfs you listed don't really matter at the 10 min mark, they matter later. I think it's safe to say ports are definitely buffed early on.
And then with 3 tcs, you potentially save 45f every 25s if you don't cut vil production, which is roughly equivalent to 2v worth of food gathering. A 2v boost isn't bad. Btw, mams are still a really good card you should send almost every game. It used to be a stupid card, and was rightfully nerfed.

Also let's keep in mind that for one thing, goons have been nerfed for other euro civs too, and for another, that generally speaking some civs that counter ports have been nerfed, for example fr, ger and brits. So I really don't think it's fair to say ports are better on RE. They used to be absolute garbage on land maps, while now they're playable. Also now ports have hunts in base...


However, I agree the vil change, along with removing a starting crate, is quite ugly. I don't think it's the right way to buff ports. Like you said it kills the 10/10, and it also makes it even harder to get any kind of tp or market at start. It's also an incentive for ports to race to age 3, and keep camping in base and spam vils, since training vils is just really efficient and doesn't use as much of your hunts now. Meanwhile the civ still dies to some early fortress timings despite being a bit faster, and cassadores are still crap.

I'd personally like to see the vil buff reverted and the starting food crate back. Keep 4 mams and goon nerfs obviously. And instead buff cassadores (+1/2 attack? +10% rr? Or just get nilla cassadores back?), cause they need to beat regular skirms obviously, since they're weaker vs cav and artillery. Also give ports a 3 organ guns shipment, obviously that shipment would be OP but it would still probably lose to well microed 2 falcs, and ports don't have many unit shipments anyway so I think it's fair (at least if not 3 organ guns, buff the 2 organs shipment in some other way). And consider moving some infantry ups to fortress, if not the combat, at least the attack/hp.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7671
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

01 Jun 2019, 10:35

HUMMAN wrote:5 mams was not OP for port, it was a trump card like boyars. Sad it's nerfed cause of Otto.

Ports used to be garbage on RE and they'd just rely purely on getting a good mam pop to hold and win. It's not healthy, it makes the civ one dimensional and predictable. It's like saying sepoys with 190 hp were fine because india wasn't OP with it, it's just wrong, we don't want civs to rely purely on one option.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Finland breeze
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1639
ESO: PrinceOfkabul

01 Jun 2019, 11:08

Kaiserklein wrote:The maths are off, as ports at 10 min you have 40v, even if you stayed age 2 and have 2 tcs. If you aged to fortress you probably have more. So the buff at that point is at least roughly 15*33 = 495f. So basically, you saved at least 400f (after removing the starting crate) by that time, which is definitely not nothing. It means ports can age a bit faster or get a bit more units out early on. On the other hand, the nerfs you listed don't really matter at the 10 min mark, they matter later. I think it's safe to say ports are definitely buffed early on.


I just watched few recs that I played today to make sure, and I don't think it's possible to have 40v until 10 min if you stay colo, at max you would get 33-35 probably which requires good macro/hunting etc, the biggest issue is lacking good units. Also on RE you would potentially deal vs china/spain with goons but right now there is little chance you can deal against these civs, there is really not much you can do when goons are insufficient to tank low hp cassadores,


Kaiserklein wrote:And then with 3 tcs, you potentially save 45f every 25s if you don't cut vil production, which is roughly equivalent to 2v worth of food gathering. A 2v boost isn't bad. Btw, mams are still a really good card you should send almost every game. It used to be a stupid card, and was rightfully nerfed.

Also let's keep in mind that for one thing, goons have been nerfed for other euro civs too, and for another, that generally speaking some civs that counter ports have been nerfed, for example fr, ger and brits. So I really don't think it's fair to say ports are better on RE. They used to be absolute garbage on land maps, while now they're playable. Also now ports have hunts in base…

Biggest issue about RE patch was having maps with less amount of food which would become more of an issue, other than that, before ep came out, I had chance to play at some maps like High plains, Arkansas, kamchatka, maps were bigger factor that decide to matchups on RE for ports.
About EP, Porto does ok against fr, brits, but porto didn't become insane against these civs though, also these match ups dont require massing strong goon compositions at all, but against the civs where your only choice is massing heavily goons, you have less chance to win right now such as vs china/spain and india


Kaiserklein wrote:However, I agree the vil change, along with removing a starting crate, is quite ugly. I don't think it's the right way to buff ports. Like you said it kills the 10/10, and it also makes it even harder to get any kind of tp or market at start. It's also an incentive for ports to race to age 3, and keep camping in base and spam vils, since training vils is just really efficient and doesn't use as much of your hunts now. Meanwhile the civ still dies to some early fortress timings despite being a bit faster, and cassadores are still crap.

I would personally suggest reverting -100food and increase vill cost to 90 or 95 food it could be tested later


Kaiserklein wrote:I'd personally like to see the vil buff reverted and the starting food crate back. Keep 4 mams and goon nerfs obviously. And instead buff cassadores (+1/2 attack? +10% rr? Or just get nilla cassadores back?), cause they need to beat regular skirms obviously, since they're weaker vs cav and artillery. Also give ports a 3 organ guns shipment, obviously that shipment would be OP but it would still probably lose to well microed 2 falcs, and ports don't have many unit shipments anyway so I think it's fair (at least if not 3 organ guns, buff the 2 organs shipment in some other way). And consider moving some infantry ups to fortress, if not the combat, at least the attack/hp.

Giving 3 organs would be insanely op against the civs which dont have falconet.
I think best fix would be +%5 rr and fix cassadores. Nilla cassadores sound reasonable but giving them +2 attack would also be ok.
bwinner wrote:I was happy when breeze posted a rec where he beat me once, which means he believes I am good.
Georgia Qosashvili93
Crossbow
Posts: 37
ESO: Qosashvili93

01 Jun 2019, 11:16

what about delete this civ?
User avatar
Turkey HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 743
ESO: HUMMAN

01 Jun 2019, 11:26

Kaiserklein wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:5 mams was not OP for port, it was a trump card like boyars. Sad it's nerfed cause of Otto.

Ports used to be garbage on RE and they'd just rely purely on getting a good mam pop to hold and win. It's not healthy, it makes the civ one dimensional and predictable. It's like saying sepoys with 190 hp were fine because india wasn't OP with it, it's just wrong, we don't want civs to rely purely on one option.

Is russia one dimensional cause you always wants to send boyars and 5 cossack? Or as germans 3 SW. I think it makes civs interesting, and 5 mams make Port fortress avaible. Mams are not like sepoy where you can spam them. If anything Port has many options like atp, water, fi, forward TC and 5 mams let to exiciting fortress gameplays for me. :smile:
Image
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7671
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

01 Jun 2019, 11:43

breeze wrote:I just watched few recs that I played today to make sure, and I don't think it's possible to have 40v until 10 min if you stay colo, at max you would get 33-35 probably which requires good macro/hunting etc, the biggest issue is lacking good units. Also on RE you would potentially deal vs china/spain with goons but right now there is little chance you can deal against these civs, there is really not much you can do when goons are insufficient to tank low hp cassadores,

I just tried it quickly and got 39v at exactly 10 mins, without aging to fortress. If you age up you will train 2 less vils while aging, but you'll get them back quickly from the 3rd towncenter. But I know sometimes you might have to cut vil production to train units, just saying that ideally, you get roughly 40v at 10 min.
spoiler


Biggest issue about RE patch was having maps with less amount of food which would become more of an issue, other than that, before ep came out, I had chance to play at some maps like High plains, Arkansas, kamchatka, maps were bigger factor that decide to matchups on RE for ports.
About EP, Porto does ok against fr, brits, but porto didn't become insane against these civs though, also these match ups dont require massing strong goon compositions at all, but against the civs where your only choice is massing heavily goons, you have less chance to win right now such as vs china/spain and india

Against spain it's true the mu is harder on EP, because spain is stronger and goons are nerfed. Idk about china, it's anyway a shit mu for ports, but on RE old han was potentially very scary in this mu. Vs india I doubt you want to go heavy on goons.
I'm quite sure ports do better vs fr/ger/brit on EP yeah. I'm not saying they're insane, just that imo they're better on EP now overall.

I would personally suggest reverting -100food and increase vill cost to 90 or 95 food it could be tested later

I guess that could work, but idk I'd rather have the buffs I listed instead.

Giving 3 organs would be insanely op against the civs which dont have falconet.
I think best fix would be +%5 rr and fix cassadores. Nilla cassadores sound reasonable but giving them +2 attack would also be ok.

3 organs would be really strong yeah, but since ports don't mass much early on I think it's fine. It can also be 3 organs for 200g or whatever. Just buff the organ shipment. And yeah buff cassadores.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
France Kaiserklein
Gendarme
NWC LAN 4th place
Posts: 7671
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

01 Jun 2019, 11:48

HUMMAN wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:5 mams was not OP for port, it was a trump card like boyars. Sad it's nerfed cause of Otto.

Ports used to be garbage on RE and they'd just rely purely on getting a good mam pop to hold and win. It's not healthy, it makes the civ one dimensional and predictable. It's like saying sepoys with 190 hp were fine because india wasn't OP with it, it's just wrong, we don't want civs to rely purely on one option.

Is russia one dimensional cause you always wants to send boyars and 5 cossack? Or as germans 3 SW. I think it makes civs interesting, and 5 mams make Port fortress avaible. Mams are not like sepoy where you can spam them. If anything Port has many options like atp, water, fi, forward TC and 5 mams let to exiciting fortress gameplays for me. :smile:

There's a difference between having some (very) strong cards like 5 coss or 3 sw, and purely relying on one totally op card to win the game. 5 mams was literally the port win condition. I don't think it's exciting, but rather boring. And it adds randomness because you can't know when mams will pop from a tc right on your face, it's pretty stupid. 4 mams is still a super strong shipment anyway.
Btw russia going 5 coss every game or ger going 3 sw every game is also boring to some extent. It's just less stupid than mams because it's just a part of the typical build, not the one card that will entirely decide the game.
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Great Britain Hazza54321
Gendarme
Donator 01
Posts: 6277

01 Jun 2019, 11:53

Port being weaker on ep is aload of shite. I do think they need to be tweaked however to be a little stronger.
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7797
ESO: Garja

01 Jun 2019, 11:55

Wait is this thread to suggest to buff Ports even more? :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Finland breeze
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1639
ESO: PrinceOfkabul

01 Jun 2019, 11:57

Garja wrote:Wait is this thread to suggest to buff Ports even more? :lol: :lol: :lol:

lol.
bwinner wrote:I was happy when breeze posted a rec where he beat me once, which means he believes I am good.
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7797
ESO: Garja

01 Jun 2019, 12:00

lol about peoplse who say 15f per vill is not much. It's 15% cheaper eco.
User avatar
Finland breeze
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1639
ESO: PrinceOfkabul

01 Jun 2019, 12:06

Garja wrote:lol about peoplse who say 15f per vill is not much. It's 15% cheaper eco.

it's 240-300 food or w.e until 10 minute mark and your most important stuffs are nerfed. So what?. You seriously think porto is buffed? lol

Also please compare RE porto to EP porto, and obviously RE porto had more chance winning some mu's while EP porto doesn't recive benefits at all, expect they do better vs fre/brit which was okayish on balanced maps anyway.
bwinner wrote:I was happy when breeze posted a rec where he beat me once, which means he believes I am good.
User avatar
Austria knusch
Dragoon
EWTEPL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 370

01 Jun 2019, 12:31

RE ports > EP ports 99% sure :P
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7797
ESO: Garja

01 Jun 2019, 12:42

It's not just 300f, it is having 15% chepaer eco to build. What other things are nerfed? Goon rr? It's the same for other civs. Goon card? It was OP. Ports are definetely better on EP and their win rate it is just higher. Maybe if you stop making goons when you should not you would start appreciating it.
Anyway, vill discount should be nerfed and something else should be given to Ports military wise. 9cassas and a cost buff for them. Perhaps an organ buff.
User avatar
Austria knusch
Dragoon
EWTEPL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 370

01 Jun 2019, 12:46

Garja wrote: Ports are definetely better on EP


Image
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7797
ESO: Garja

01 Jun 2019, 13:25

what's exactly better on RE? water FI on borneo for 20 range goons? :uglylol:
User avatar
Finland breeze
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1639
ESO: PrinceOfkabul

01 Jun 2019, 13:30

Garja wrote:what's exactly better on RE? water FI on borneo for 20 range goons? :uglylol:

I'm unsure if you read the topic, it feels like you just read the title and jump in lol
bwinner wrote:I was happy when breeze posted a rec where he beat me once, which means he believes I am good.
User avatar
Austria knusch
Dragoon
EWTEPL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 370

01 Jun 2019, 13:36

ports key unit,goons received 2 nerfs. mams shipment got nerfed aswell.
sure, u can make an arguement as to why these changes were needed, but how exactly does it make the civ stronger? i couldn't care less about saving a couple hundred food in exchange for that....if u could choose to either play EP ports or RE ports on EP maps, u honestly gonna go for cheaper vills over goons that basically outrange everything + 5 mams?
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Gendarme
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 9798
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

01 Jun 2019, 13:44

The FI build was definitely stronger on the RE, I think everybody agrees on that.
As for the fortress builds, it's unclear because on the one hand you have a slightly better eco (about +2v but no snowball effect because of -100f) but on the other the -10% RR for goons is almost like -10% units so it is big, and the mam shipment is -20%.
User avatar
Italy Garja
ESOC Maps Team
Donator 02
Posts: 7797
ESO: Garja

01 Jun 2019, 13:58

5 -> 4 mams: besides being just a fair nerf it barely matters on EP. Port don't rely nearly as much on them on EP.
Genitours nerf: again fair nerf and you shouldn't go full goons anyway.
Overall Ports just play better than in RE, both in 1v1 and team. And in fact the win rate is just higher.

if u could choose to either play EP ports or RE ports on EP maps, u honestly gonna go for cheaper vills over goons that basically outrange everything + 5 mams?

yes? Becaue you're dying anyway if you FI and because you often die before using mams or even when you manage to use them?

Forum Info

Return to “General”



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest