The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user »

I get a lot of flak for resigning games early. Allow me a rebuttal.

Whom do I get flak from? Teammates. Why? They're having fun.

It's fun feeling the slow creep of winning water. You have 112 villagers and more units than anymore. You're slow pushing a 2nt lt, or barely holding a brig but holding. That's fun. No, we're not winning because you're having fun.

Who else? Viewers. It's fun watching a game. You forget your stress and obligations, your paltry life and place on earth. Game ends, the high dies. No, I'm not winning because you're having fun.

I've a GM mentality vs CMs. A game is statistically lost and should be resigned, and so I resign. Why stoop? It's not a win if you blunder. You blundered. What did I do? Blunder less? Or blundered at a more convenient time? I got lucky. It's not fun getting lucky.

When I'm not having fun, I quit.

A little reason goes a long way.

Thanks.
No Flag tedere12
Jaeger
Posts: 3449
Joined: Jun 8, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by tedere12 »

deleted_user wrote:I get a lot of flak for resigning games early. Allow me a rebuttal.

Whom do I get flak from? Teammates. Why? They're having fun.

It's fun feeling the slow creep of winning water. You have 112 villagers and more units than anymore. You're slow pushing a 2nt lt, or barely holding a brig but holding. That's fun. No, we're not winning because you're having fun.

Who else? Viewers. It's fun watching a game. You forget your stress and obligations, your paltry life and place on earth. Game ends, the high dies. No, I'm not winning because you're having fun.

I've a GM mentality vs CMs. A game is statistically lost and should be resigned, and so I resign. Why stoop? It's not a win if you blunder. You blundered. What did I do? Blunder less? Or blundered at a more convenient time? I got lucky. It's not fun getting lucky.

When I'm not having fun, I quit.

A little reason goes a long way.

Thanks.

here's your alert
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by Hazza54321 »

Whats even more fun is where you fix your or your teammates blunder and comeback in a near impossible situation
User avatar
Kiribati princeofcarthage
Retired Contributor
Posts: 8861
Joined: Aug 28, 2015
Location: Milky Way!

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by princeofcarthage »

Stick to 1v1, you don't understand concept of team.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
User avatar
No Flag Djigit
Howdah
Posts: 1605
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Djigit »

teamgames Image
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by Goodspeed »

In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by Hazza54321 »

Callen resigns are before the game even starts though
User avatar
United States of America n0el
ESOC Business Team
Posts: 7068
Joined: Jul 24, 2015
ESO: jezabob
Clan: 팀 하우스

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by n0el »

more time to cuck the pussbois
mad cuz bad
User avatar
Kiribati princeofcarthage
Retired Contributor
Posts: 8861
Joined: Aug 28, 2015
Location: Milky Way!

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by princeofcarthage »

Goodspeed wrote:In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

But who decides what is a lost game? Mistakes are part of games, and unless some of them makes no one would win. A perfect game should end in tie. Winner is someone who ideally makes less impact mistakes than opponent. You have not won the game until you have won, and you have to be on your toes till end. In games like Risk, Chess, Go, to some extent I can agree that you reach a point where while still having a mathematical chance you have practically lost it, and best option might be to resign, however same doesn't hold true in most cases where callen resigns. I would agree with you if one opponent is age 3 and other is age 5 with 3 times the score.
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
User avatar
Spain Snuden
Jaeger
Posts: 4276
Joined: Dec 28, 2016
ESO: Snuden
Location: Costa del Baphomet

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Snuden »

Noted.
[Sith] - Baphomet
User avatar
Great Britain Riotcoke
Retired Contributor
ECL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 4088
Joined: May 7, 2019
ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Dorsetshire
Clan: UwU

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Riotcoke »

Goodspeed wrote:In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.


So playing on in GO is the equivalent of IAmTurk not resigning when he's lost :lol:
Image

twitch.tv/stangoesdeepTV
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Goodspeed »

princeofcarthage wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

But who decides what is a lost game? Mistakes are part of games, and unless some of them makes no one would win. A perfect game should end in tie. Winner is someone who ideally makes less impact mistakes than opponent. You have not won the game until you have won, and you have to be on your toes till end. In games like Risk, Chess, Go, to some extent I can agree that you reach a point where while still having a mathematical chance you have practically lost it, and best option might be to resign, however same doesn't hold true in most cases where callen resigns. I would agree with you if one opponent is age 3 and other is age 5 with 3 times the score.
I didn't express an opinion either way. Most you could be agreeing with is Go etiquette.

Players decide whether a game is over separately. If the loser is so much weaker than the winner that they can't see that they've lost, they are excused. But if players are of equal strength they will typically decide the game is over at a similar time. The longer you play with a lost position, the ruder you are.
This is really only a thing on high levels of play though. And once you get gd, there are actually a lot of weird (but often sensible) unwritten rules like this in Go.

I think what it ultimately came from is that in Go, games don't end until one player resigns or both players agree that there are no more useful moves. You can't quickly turn an advantage into a win like you can in Chess or RTS. There is no one piece you can capture to win the game. If the other player insists, you will have to play out the game until there are no more useful moves. Your losing opponent even technically has the right to fill up the whole board with moves that actually increase your lead, if he feels like wasting your time. If he gets a minute per move, which is common, you could be talking about easily an extra hour of wasted time.
User avatar
Brazil lemmings121
Jaeger
Posts: 2673
Joined: Mar 15, 2015
ESO: lemmings121

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by lemmings121 »

deleted_user wrote:I get a lot of flak for resigning games early. Allow me a rebuttal.

Whom do I get flak from? Teammates. Why? They're having fun.

It's fun feeling the slow creep of winning water. You have 112 villagers and more units than anymore. You're slow pushing a 2nt lt, or barely holding a brig but holding. That's fun. No, we're not winning because you're having fun.

Who else? Viewers. It's fun watching a game. You forget your stress and obligations, your paltry life and place on earth. Game ends, the high dies. No, I'm not winning because you're having fun.

I've a GM mentality vs CMs. A game is statistically lost and should be resigned, and so I resign. Why stoop? It's not a win if you blunder. You blundered. What did I do? Blunder less? Or blundered at a more convenient time? I got lucky. It's not fun getting lucky.

When I'm not having fun, I quit.

A little reason goes a long way.

Thanks.


It depends, what if you are playing garja and he resignes 3 games in a row in before 2 minutes because he overgathered 10w, then missclicked a treasure, then overgathered 10wood again? I was the one not having fun, and looking for someone else to play...

Sometimes you just need to accept your mistakes and keep playng, in respect to you oponent, even if you already did a mistake and cant do your perfect game anymore.
Image
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by deleted_user »

Nope, I'm right.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Goodspeed »

But think of the children, Callen. Hazza apparently struggles with losing and needs more time to wrap his head around it. Keep playing not for you or because it's the right thing to do, but for him.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by Cometk »

i once played a team game with @stanleywinston against mitoe and callen. we were getting pushed in, split apart and i was ready to call it. ward convinced me to stay in, and we eventually won the game after another 15 minute slog. important lesson learned: always, always listen to ward
Image
No Flag Superfly47
Musketeer
Posts: 71
Joined: Mar 8, 2019
ESO: Superfly47

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Superfly47 »

Your teammates are in a different position than you are with a different perspective than you. They might have a plan or see a possibility that might happen to let them back in the game. Often this involve hoping your opponents will make mistakes, such as not pushing when they should, opponent teammates take different strategies, such as two push while 3rd saves to age.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by zoom »

OP is why I play team games.
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Cometk »

playing on a team is to commit to an obligation to your teammates. if you're not having fun, then don't compete in the first place
Image
User avatar
Great Britain Riotcoke
Retired Contributor
ECL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 4088
Joined: May 7, 2019
ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Dorsetshire
Clan: UwU

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Riotcoke »

Just don't play team, play the real gamemode instead.
Image

twitch.tv/stangoesdeepTV
User avatar
United States of America Cometk
Retired Contributor
Posts: 7257
Joined: Feb 15, 2015
Location: California

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Cometk »

acceding to selfishness is fine on a personal level but don't play yourself into thinking there's any sportsmanlike justification for bouncing on your team (i think you're conscious of this callen, but it still needs to be said for the people in the back)
Image
User avatar
Poland pecelot
Retired Contributor
Donator 03
Posts: 10459
Joined: Mar 25, 2015
ESO: Pezet

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by pecelot »

Goodspeed wrote:In Go it's actually considered rude not to resign a lost game. It's considered disrespectful towards your opponent, since by continuing play you are implying that you are counting on them to fuck up and throw the game, wasting their time in the process.

that's fucked up
Austria Jerimuno
Advanced Player
Posts: 839
Joined: Nov 9, 2016
ESO: Jerimuno
GameRanger ID: 9241516

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by Jerimuno »

It's not fucked up at all, it's actually quite the opposite. Perfectly reasonable and to me applicable to aoe as well, even though to a much lesser extent of course.

I don't play Go, but to me it's qutie obviously rude behaviour if two professionals play and one simply does not give up when it's clear for both partise that the position is lost. Envision Magnus Carlsen or any other high elo chess player, when narrating over a game of chess and after move 22 saying; "and now his position is simply lost." Generally, if a lost position becomes apparent to both players the game ends. It's simple as that.

Same should go for aoe, with the big difference that even our top 8 players can blunder much more easily than a decent Go or chess player, because skill ceiling is so low.
User avatar
United States of America lesllamas
Lancer
Posts: 620
Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

Post by lesllamas »

Chess is a bit different from Go. Just in the last year there was a pretty famous case of Hikaru Nakamura getting pissed at a young GM (Praggnanandha) for not resigning when he was in a "lost" position. However, Praggnanandha WON that game. There are situations where you may be theoretically lost but it's still worth playing out because the opponent's advantage rests on a pretty sharp precipice where a single misstep could cost them their entire advantage and the game.

The chess AoE3 equivalent is that your opponent has an age 3 army with 2 falcs and all you've got is colonial musk / xbow. It's still worth forcing your opponent to execute the fight because they might fuck up with their falcs and allow you to pop minutemen right onto them, in which case you can swing the advantage in your favor. I think what GS is describing with Go is more similar to a situation where the opponent is Imperial and you're making spies / stealth units and hiding them around the map to force your opponent to kill you completely. You have no hope of winning in that scenario, but theoretically you could play the game out to its end.
User avatar
India gh0st
Lancer
Posts: 909
Joined: Sep 27, 2015
ESO: gh0st007
Location: India

Re: The Fallacy of W̶i̶n̶n̶i̶n̶g̶ Having Fun

  • Quote

Post by gh0st »

yea the game is not won unless every last spy is killed

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV