Non-viable units

Australia Kawapasaka
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Non-viable units

Post by Kawapasaka »

This is pure curiosity, I'm not saying these units should be buffed, I'm just wondering if it has ever been considered. The three that spring to mind for me immediately are Tashunke Prowlers, Mantlets and Flamethrowers - has the EP team ever thought about changing these units, or are the implications of making them viable while maintaining their uniqueness too game-breaking?
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Hazza54321 »

Ep uhlans , jans
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by yemshi »

Bad, yes.
I feel like mantlets are underused in skirm wars (iro dont have 7 prowlers why not send 5 mantlets?)
Flamthrowers are used in some aiz strats.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by gamevideo113 »

Kawapasaka wrote:This is pure curiosity, I'm not saying these units should be buffed, I'm just wondering if its ever been considered. The three that spring to mind for me immediately are Tashunke Prowlers, Mantlets and Flamethrowers - Has EP ever thought about changing these units, or are the implications of making them viable too game-breaking?


The goal of EP was to fix balance without taking the risk of creating new unbalances, so i don't think it was really ever considered. The list of underused units/stuff that need some sort of tweak would be very long anyway. I hope they'll look into it in the definitive edition.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Riotcoke »

Arsonists, Blind Monks, Wokou Ronin. Blind monks being the worst units in the game.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by gamevideo113 »

yemshi wrote:Bad, yes.
I feel like mantlets are underused in skirm wars (iro dont have 7 prowlers why not send 5 mantlets?)
Flamthrowers are used in some aiz strats.

Mantlets are just too slow. Give them 4 speed and they become viable imo. 5 mantlets in age 3 and 7 infinite in age 4 are also actually pretty good shipments
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Kawapasaka wrote:The three that spring to mind for me immediately are Tashunke Prowlers, Mantlets and Flamethrowers


:shock:
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Kawapasaka »

Lukas_L99 wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:The three that spring to mind for me immediately are Tashunke Prowlers, Mantlets and Flamethrowers


:shock:


Come to think of it I have lost to some troll flamethrower builds in the past but I assumed that was just terrible play by me and the unit was still rubbish. I remember reading here that an equal cost-amount of musks beats a flamethrower even at range, is it really any good?
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Re: Non-viable units

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Post by Garja »

Mantlets are far from non viable. The only real drawback is that they're slow AF otherwise they're pretty damn good in every regard. They still have room to be used even in the current meta.
Less viable units are:
- grenadiers, just too expensive for how they perform
- tashunke prowlers, they're just super redundant and only there cause all TWC must have a stealth unit
- arrow knights. incredibly situational, supposed to be more than that if you look at aztec unit pool
- samurai. Yes, ashi are not the greatest anticav before the combat card and yes, yamabushi have ranged resistance but still doesn't seem japan needs other anticav units. Included just because it's an iconic unit.
- flamethrower, interesting unit concpept but totally overshadowed by all other China units. If it was less expensive maybe it would have a place (currently no way to make castle+enough FT when opponent just ages and makes it obsolete).
- rajput, not exactly non viable but overshadowed by all other india units. In fact actually a good unit.
- flail elephant, ram type unit which India basically doesn't ever employ since all other units have plenty of siege.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by jgals »

Garja wrote:Mantlets are far from non viable. The only real drawbac is that they're slow AF otherwise they're pretty damn good in every regard. They still have room to be used even in the current meta.
Less viable units are:
- grenadiers, just too expensive for how they perform
- tashunke prowlers, they're just super redundant and only there cause all TWC must have a stealth unit
- arrow knights. incredibly situational, supposed to be more than that if you look at aztec unit pool
- samurai. Yes, ashi are not the greatest anticav before the combat card and yes, yamabushi have ranged resistance but still doesn't seem japan needs other anticav units. Included just because it's an iconic unit.
- flamethrower, interesting unit concpept but totally overshadowed by all other China units. If it was less expensive maybe it would have a place (currently no way to make castle+enough FT when opponent just ages and makes it obsolete).
- rajput, not exactly non viable but overshadowed by all other india units. In fact actually a good unit.
- flail elephant, ram type unit which India basically doesn't ever employ since all other units have plenty of siege.


as the only Iroquois mainer left it would be nice to see mantlets cost reduced a bit. 50 wood would be more appropriate in my opinion. everything else can remain the same, even their slow speed. Although, they should not cause units to change into a weird spread out formation when grouped, and should be made to go to the front better.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Sergeant_Recker »

@Garja Aren't arrow knights really good for a age 3 unit? They seem very cost efficient from 125 resources for 30 range, good siege damage, good anti-artillery and also good anti-ship? They're not as good as culverins but they're still good especially for aztecs right?

Also, why do you say rajputs are good units? They don't even have good siege damage. I mean 100 f, 25 w for making them, that's kind of expensive than sepoys. They are not even as good as rodeleros.
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Re: Non-viable units

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Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Arrow knights are awful, and rajputs are even worse.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by dansil92 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Arrow knights are awful, and rajputs are even worse.


Arrow knights in fortress are absolutely garbage. They get better late game (attack dance, cards etc by 210% to attack for example) but they are still never fantastic.

Id like to see rajputs cost dropped or something. Their speed and high melee damage has potential but the cost is so prohibitive

Mantlets its literally just the speed that sucks but they can tank so much in skirm wars
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Hazza54321 »

Arrows are great vs art but thats about it
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Kawapasaka wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:
Kawapasaka wrote:The three that spring to mind for me immediately are Tashunke Prowlers, Mantlets and Flamethrowers


:shock:


Come to think of it I have lost to some troll flamethrower builds in the past but I assumed that was just terrible play by me and the unit was still rubbish. I remember reading here that an equal cost-amount of musks beats a flamethrower even at range, is it really any good?


They can be great vs a bow/pike rush like mookie did it, or just inf rushes in general. Also theyre not that bad vs civs who dont go skirm/goon or cav heavy.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by dansil92 »

Hazza54321 wrote:Arrows are great vs art but thats about it


Not like the average game with aztec goes to imperial but they do get up to 31 ranged attack with the rof of any other archer. Not really worth two pop but to say they are only good vs artillery is an overstatement. In fortress they are bad at everything. 12.5 damage to artillery... so strong. ...
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Re: Non-viable units

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Post by evilcheadar »

Riotcoke wrote:Arsonists, Blind Monks, Wokou Ronin. Blind monks being the worst units in the game.

They’re blind, cut them some slack.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Hazza54321 »

dansil92 wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Arrows are great vs art but thats about it


Not like the average game with aztec goes to imperial but they do get up to 31 ranged attack with the rof of any other archer. Not really worth two pop but to say they are only good vs artillery is an overstatement. In fortress they are bad at everything. 12.5 damage to artillery... so strong. ...

Yeah theyre poor vs everything else but great vs artilerry
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Riotcoke »

evilcheadar wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Arsonists, Blind Monks, Wokou Ronin. Blind monks being the worst units in the game.

They’re blind, cut them some slack.


Shouldn't be fighting if they're blind!
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by HUMMAN »

There people who are brigadier with flame thrower how is it bad lul
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Dolphincup »

Please set blind monk LoS to 0. unit should not be able to scout.

IMO, cost adjustments make for an easy way to try to balance under used units. things can only be over- and under-powered relative to their costs.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:Arrows are great vs art but thats about it

Not even that good vs art. They take ages to kill the canons, thus they can rape your infantry.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:Arrows are great vs art but thats about it

Not even that good vs art. They take ages to kill the canons, thus they can rape your infantry.


They're also good at pressuring through siege aren't they?
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by zoom »

Kawapasaka wrote:This is pure curiosity, I'm not saying these units should be buffed, I'm just wondering if it has ever been considered. The three that spring to mind for me immediately are Tashunke Prowlers, Mantlets and Flamethrowers - has the EP team ever thought about changing these units, or are the implications of making them viable while maintaining their uniqueness too game-breaking?
Yes, yes, and yes.
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Re: Non-viable units

Post by gamevideo113 »

How does making such nieche units viable have gamebreaking implications? :hmm:
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