A typical game vs german

[[Armag] diarouga]

I don't think Ger is OP in the traditional sense that they can't be reasonably/realistically beat. I think Ger might take the cake for the easiest EP civ to play in a lot of MUs - which was reason enough for EP to nerf sepoys and jans - both of which nerfs I approve of.

On wood start Germany is op as you can't really beat them.

[Mitoe]

I don't think Ger is OP in the traditional sense that they can't be reasonably/realistically beat. I think Ger might take the cake for the easiest EP civ to play in a lot of MUs - which was reason enough for EP to nerf sepoys and jans - both of which nerfs I approve of.

On wood start Germany is op as you can't really beat them.

It’s kind of crazy how heavily you overestimate the power of this civ, haha. Germany is strong but I don’t think they’re that OP by any means right now.

[deleted_user0]

I don't think Ger is OP in the traditional sense that they can't be reasonably/realistically beat. I think Ger might take the cake for the easiest EP civ to play in a lot of MUs - which was reason enough for EP to nerf sepoys and jans - both of which nerfs I approve of.

On wood start Germany is op as you can't really beat them.

It’s kind of crazy how heavily you overestimate the power of this civ, haha. Germany is strong but I don’t think they’re that OP by any means right now.

They are. People just tend to do often weird colonial strats when German tp start FF is just insane and unbeatable most MUs. It's impossible to punish it with half of the civs. People seem fail to understand how important it is to send fortress shipments instead of colonial, as the shipment value rockets with veteran uhlan and one extra per shipment.
I mean, imagine, even I am able to pull very good records vs top players as germans with terrible macro, terrible micro and almost zero practice. You simply have to age up. Colonial play (if not absolute forced play) is waste of shipment play.

This is also the reason why I wouldn't bet my money on you. You seem to - for some unknown reason - encourage way too much colonial play which is probably why you think Germans are fine.

[juhjuh]

germnys Units do all suck like Uhlans are bad ,wws are bad, dopps are bad the only decent Unit they can make are skrims. you just cant do age 2 Timings becouse of youre Timings being slower beocuse youre shipments come later and dopps. also age up is slower becouse of later 700c

[deleted_user0]

@Mitoe

I mean, look at the graph of OP, is there a window for brit to make any kind of timing? Maybe some kind of weak, sacrificing all his eco. A few wws, timing is dead.

Why would you ever play colonial vs brit? It's simply a misplay.

[[Armag] diarouga]

germnys Units do all suck like Uhlans are bad ,wws are bad, dopps are bad the only decent Unit they can make are skrims. you just cant do age 2 Timings becouse of youre Timings being slower beocuse youre shipments come later dopps. also age up is slower becouse of later 700c

WW are not that bad honestly. They used to be bad compared to goons but now they're just as good as goons. Also WW outrange muskets which is great to hold colo timings.

[Mitoe]

@Mitoe

I mean, look at the graph of OP, is there a window for brit to make any kind of timing? Maybe some kind of weak, sacrificing all his eco. A few wws, timing is dead.

Why would you ever play colonial vs brit? It's simply a misplay.

No, I never play Colonial Ger vs Brit, ever. That’s not me. The only times I ever consider playing Colonial usually is vs some kind of forward base because Germany does actually have pretty strong early Colonial timings. Trust me, I understand the importance of the Fortress Age with Germans.

The graph doesn’t really matter as much as you seem to think it does. Other civs have less units but most other civs have stronger upgrades and will outscale. The larger the fight the better it is for other civs. Not to mention the compositional advantages for some civs with falconets in later stages of fortress.

And they’re not unpunishable either. The standard German Uhlan semi is weak to a 3 card musk huss or pike huss timing then 4th card age against a lot of civs, usually losing a couple of buildings and probably their TP as well.

I have lots of success vs strong German players with a variety of civs doing this, even on other patches.

[Hazza54321]

Im pretty sure most tournament games you see german have 50 more pop at key stages of the game (when you run out of food for example). The reasons why you and kaiser dont think germans are op because you tend to delete that pop trying to take a horribly positioned fight vs ranged inf + building wall. Imagine if kaiser actually added falconets in his games at relevant times rather than sending 50 uhlan at a wall then complaining.

[Mitoe]

Lol. The games I lose with Germans are more because I try to go for stupid plans sometimes, but not because I waste all of my units on bad fights. I don’t think Germans aren’t OP because I lose with them, I think they’re not OP because I never feel scared playing against Germans. Feels like I just always know what they’re going to do and can punish or outscale.

[juhjuh]

germnys Units do all suck like Uhlans are bad ,wws are bad, dopps are bad the only decent Unit they can make are skrims. you just cant do age 2 Timings becouse of youre Timings being slower beocuse youre shipments come later dopps. also age up is slower becouse of later 700c

WW are not that bad honestly. They used to be bad compared to goons but now they're just as good as goons. Also WW outrange muskets which is great to hold colo timings.

jup i agree with the musks. Maybe it is my mirco but kiting with ww seems way harder then with goons, also they do Overkill a lot idk, trying to kite pike, huss, skrim/lb compositions against China or Brit feels difficult. Atleast it is for me, also you just cant block

[bepsi]

You tell them Mitoe. People who main India and Otto should speak sotto voce about other civs being op.

[bobabu]

The thing is that there are no counterpicks for Germany.
You don't even have to play this game to understand why they are so op. They get extra villagers two times on SW shipments compared to other nilla civs. Their colonial shipments are worth fortress, fortress industrial.

It's simple math to understand why so many civs just basically can't win Germany. You can't even force them to stay colonial because of ep maps, war wagons outranging and every kind of possible military shipment.

On a standard game vs asian civs you end up easily being 30 score up (150-120) only going fortress and shipping units. And you can't even punish them like dutch/brit or its way harder.

This+empirical experience is the reason why around half of the pro scene is waiting for German nerfs. Only German mains seem to defend them with some kind of pervert logic "If he makes 1 small mistake, he should lose the match-up", meanwhile its so easy to control the game with insane shipments and pace germany has.

Do you even know what empirical evidence is or are you just throwing around words you like.

[deleted_user0]

Do you see word "evidence" in the quote or are you just a little dumb? @bobabu

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, on wood start Germany should win every MU (although it's not easy), that's broken for sure.
On non wood start, the civ is more balanced and you can beat it with many civs but still, you can't counter civ it. That's the reason why we saw some many Germany mirrors on Kamchatka at the LAN.
Player A picks a civ, player B picks Germany. Player A thinks and picks Germany too because there is no way to counter it.

[Riotcoke]

Yea, on wood start Germany should win every MU (although it's not easy), that's broken for sure.
On non wood start, the civ is more balanced and you can beat it with many civs but still, you can't counter civ it. That's the reason why we saw some many Germany mirrors on Kamchatka at the LAN.
Player A picks a civ, player B picks Germany. Player A thinks and picks Germany too because there is no way to counter it.

Kamchatka was always the first map, it makes sense to see mirrors for the first map as it's the easiest mu to agree upon.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, on wood start Germany should win every MU (although it's not easy), that's broken for sure.
On non wood start, the civ is more balanced and you can beat it with many civs but still, you can't counter civ it. That's the reason why we saw some many Germany mirrors on Kamchatka at the LAN.
Player A picks a civ, player B picks Germany. Player A thinks and picks Germany too because there is no way to counter it.

Kamchatka was always the first map, it makes sense to see mirrors for the first map as it's the easiest mu to agree upon.

It does indeed make sense to see mirrors for the first map. Why Germany mirrors though? Well, because if you pick another civ, your opponent will counter you instead of mirroring.

[Mitoe]

Probably more because 4 or 5 of the 8 players are really comfortable in that matchup.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah I mean, I would also consider picking fr on that map, or sioux. But mitoe and me have grinded ger mirrors so much, we kind of always want to go for it in tourney.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah I mean, I would also consider picking fr on that map, or sioux. But mitoe and me have grinded ger mirrors so much, we kind of always want to go for it in tourney.

I doesn't really make sense honestly. You've grinded Germany in general a lot so if you could beat Germany easily, you'd win with a civ you are not too confident playing in other MUs and win with Germany later.
You don't do that because you are actually not confident you can beat Germany with a civ you don't want to play later and you want to win game 1.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah, I have so little confidence I can beat germany that I was gonna bet 30 bucks on it. Thank you for your insight regarding my thought process though, it's definitely valuable

[princeofcarthage]

xD

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yeah, I have so little confidence I can beat germany that I was gonna bet 30 bucks on it. Thank you for your insight regarding my thought process though, it's definitely valuable

If you're confident you can beat Ger, then mirroring it with your best civ is a bad tournament strategy.

[juhjuh]

dident he Play France Germany against Prinz?

[[Armag] diarouga]

dident he Play France Germany against Prinz?

He did on a low resource map. He didn't vs rapha/mitoe however.

[007Salt]

I know with Japan I always feel like i'm fighting an uphill battle vs Germans in most games.