The Minor Native Thread

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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye but people just forget about nats, need to plan the strategy according to the techs/units.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

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Post by zoom »

I think the focal point should be buffing completely unviable improvements and units. It's fine if natives remain situational, it's just, all of them should be viable, at some point, or in some cases.

Some of these ratings seem off, to me, too.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by 007Salt »

To me it's a 200 wood investment to see if there's any OP techs cuz you never know.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by dansil92 »

007Salt wrote:To me it's a 200 wood investment to see if there's any OP techs cuz you never know.


Its... always the same upgrades for the native tribes... you can click the settlement and press "alt" to see them if you dont have them memorised
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by 007Salt »

dansil92 wrote:
007Salt wrote:To me it's a 200 wood investment to see if there's any OP techs cuz you never know.


Its... always the same upgrades for the native tribes... you can click the settlement and press "alt" to see them if you dont have them memorised

You can see the names of the techs but if you have what they are memorized then even better. I think by the time 200 wood is no big deal then anyone who's a noob with natives should at least check them out.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by scarm »

Tbh chopping 200 Wood always feels bad. Its just soooo slow. But yeah i think main problem really is just not remembering natives.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by 007Salt »

scarm wrote:Tbh chopping 200 Wood always feels bad. Its just soooo slow. But yeah i think main problem really is just not remembering natives.

Getting a native post that early you would have to know exactly what techs there is with that to see if it helps your early game.

There's a native tech that allows for cheaper buildings which is OP for british with virginia company for example.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

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Post by Amsel_ »

Thank you for making this thread. I've always thought natives were too underwhelming in AoE3. Since the ESOC Patch doesn't want to make major changes to the game, I can only recommend.

-Tweaking unit cost and strength.
-Revealing the whole map, since the natives probably know the local area pretty well.
-Big buttons that allow you to get a batch of units at a discounted price; one for age 2, 3, and 4.

If we were talking about major changes then some ideas are.

-Adding a "call village militia" feature that essentially works as a free minutemen. You can use it every 3-4 minutes. This would make nats useful for map control.
-Building a native TP gets you a unique explorer unit from that tribe. He's immortal like a regular explorer, but can be killed if the TP was destroyed.
-A random gift every 5 minutes. It could be resources, units, villagers, or temporary buffs to stuff like damage or gather rate.
-An extra row of shipments in the home city menu, but they're shipments from that native tribe.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Lol, please
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by Akechi_Mitsuhide »

Amsel_ wrote:Thank you for making this thread. I've always thought natives were too underwhelming in AoE3. Since the ESOC Patch doesn't want to make major changes to the game, I can only recommend.

-Tweaking unit cost and strength.
-Revealing the whole map, since the natives probably know the local area pretty well.
-Big buttons that allow you to get a batch of units at a discounted price; one for age 2, 3, and 4.

If we were talking about major changes then some ideas are.

-Adding a "call village militia" feature that essentially works as a free minutemen. You can use it every 3-4 minutes. This would make nats useful for map control.
-Building a native TP gets you a unique explorer unit from that tribe. He's immortal like a regular explorer, but can be killed if the TP was destroyed.
-A random gift every 5 minutes. It could be resources, units, villagers, or temporary buffs to stuff like damage or gather rate.
-An extra row of shipments in the home city menu, but they're shipments from that native tribe.


I don't know how this isn't major changes haha. Would just completely change the game lol
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

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Post by zoom »

007Salt wrote:
dansil92 wrote:
007Salt wrote:To me it's a 200 wood investment to see if there's any OP techs cuz you never know.


Its... always the same upgrades for the native tribes... you can click the settlement and press "alt" to see them if you dont have them memorised

You can see the names of the techs but if you have what they are memorized then even better. I think by the time 200 wood is no big deal then anyone who's a noob with natives should at least check them out.
Try pressing your alt key.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think building a native TP should give you trade monopoly for free in age 2, and it should only last 2 minutes.
It makes me so sad to see that natives are not viable, that way people would make natives every game ! Also people would stop going for the same skirm/goon semi ff game after game, this is how we need to balance the game !
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by Akechi_Mitsuhide »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think building a native TP should give you trade monopoly for free, and it should only last 2 minutes.
It makes me so sad to see that natives are not viable, that way people would make natives every game !

I'd go for 1 minute here honestly. 2 minutes just seems a bit too weak to me
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Akechi_Mitsuhide wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think building a native TP should give you trade monopoly for free, and it should only last 2 minutes.
It makes me so sad to see that natives are not viable, that way people would make natives every game !

I'd go for 1 minute here honestly. 2 minutes just seems a bit too weak to me

True, but then we'd need to increase the native siege attack by 1000%, to make sure they can kill the TPs in time.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by Amsel_ »

Akechi_Mitsuhide wrote:
Amsel_ wrote:Thank you for making this thread. I've always thought natives were too underwhelming in AoE3. Since the ESOC Patch doesn't want to make major changes to the game, I can only recommend.

-Tweaking unit cost and strength.
-Revealing the whole map, since the natives probably know the local area pretty well.
-Big buttons that allow you to get a batch of units at a discounted price; one for age 2, 3, and 4.

If we were talking about major changes then some ideas are.

-Adding a "call village militia" feature that essentially works as a free minutemen. You can use it every 3-4 minutes. This would make nats useful for map control.
-Building a native TP gets you a unique explorer unit from that tribe. He's immortal like a regular explorer, but can be killed if the TP was destroyed.
-A random gift every 5 minutes. It could be resources, units, villagers, or temporary buffs to stuff like damage or gather rate.
-An extra row of shipments in the home city menu, but they're shipments from that native tribe.


I don't know how this isn't major changes haha. Would just completely change the game lol

The first three aren't that big. (And just to clarify, revealing the map just means you have the map scouted. The fog of war is still there.) The bottom four are major, potentially game-changing changes, which is why I didn't recommend them.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by scarm »

I mean you could simply play some total conversion like NE or WoL at that point.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by 007Salt »

zoom wrote:
007Salt wrote:
Show hidden quotes

You can see the names of the techs but if you have what they are memorized then even better. I think by the time 200 wood is no big deal then anyone who's a noob with natives should at least check them out.
Try pressing your alt key.

I knew that lol.. the only problem is the alt key doesn't also tell you what the techs do
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by dansil92 »

Honestly giving native tps a large line of sight wouldnt be terrible on maps where the natives spawn centre map but idk seems unnecessary. Nat rushes are always fairly mediocre besides rattan and inca or an occasional jesuit or apache compliment to a civ lacking a solid anticav, and i think thats intentional. Every time i attempt nat rushes i always hit my build limit in 90 seconds and go "now what"

I have on occasion gone for xbow pike rattan as spain :lol: its actually not awful
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

zoom wrote:I think the focal point should be buffing completely unviable improvements and units. It's fine if natives remain situational, it's just, all of them should be viable, at some point, or in some cases.

Some of these ratings seem off, to me, too.


I think my own ratings are somewhat biased towards the units because I want to use them, not just take the TP, take the techs and forget it exists. The techs are situational based on civ usually but that's incredibly hard to rate. For example Seminole is really worth it if using archers but 100% useless if you aren't. Huron might be a little better than I said, cus sure 20% is good but the rest of it is useless which I don't think is desirable. I get sad on Huron only maps because the only way I can honestly utilize them is play a fishing boom. Whoopee do, bring out the creativity.

Cheyenne for example are really good if the game goes mid to late but the units themselves have a very high wood cost which sure can be mitigated by stagecoach and the like but how many games on High Plains in New World Tournament actually got Cheyenne techs let alone used their units?

Having said all this, especially based on Diarouga's comments of which I greatly appreciate, I really wonder how much interest there is in changing them at all. That makes me really sad but I get the overwhelming feeling people don't want to change them at risk of ruining their build orders. That's okay of course and that's not a personal attack, it's just personal taste.

Speaking from my personal preference, the fact people don't know what natives do and aren't ever punished for it more or less reinforces just how useless they are. I know what they all do off the top of my head and that knowledge almost never comes into play.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Cherokee is defo B
And comanche is B if not A. The tech boosts are cheaps and super good. 10% cav speed is awesome, especially on sioux. 10% cav hp is great as well and 10% coin reduction is ok lategame, but not every tech has to be awesome.

Huron is great on water. Nootka, mapuche and maya are great for nat rush timings to bring down an ff or a slow age. Nootka is awesome for france too in some mu's, and seminole is op for brits, japan, age2 iro and sioux

The main problem with nats imo is the nat token, making scouting useless. I often wait until the last minutw before finishing it, but this is undesirable if you need 2 posts and theyre far apart (like on high plains).

That brings me to problem 2, nat post location and combo. Often either the location of the post is terribad, or the combo sux. That alone would be a major boost.

Then finally, the nat alliance card should be buffed, the nilla strength was ok for the card i think.

Then finally, nat embassy can be made cheaper, and some techs or unit costs can be tweaked, but not much is needed imo.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:I think natives should be an option when gold runs out(investing in plants or natives?) rather than 200/200 pop.

And it is an option. People usually train bow/pike (and they have to upgrade them too). Most natives are definitely better than bow/pike.


Theyre better, but not can't be massed. The pop limit on nats is generally too low. Its understandable for lategame, but while it doesnt matter early, it diminishes their value in the mid game.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by dansil92 »

@deleted_user why do you not mention seminole for aztec? Mace and Erks and arrow knights even are archers... 10 attack mace in colonial is pretty powerful and an extra 25% erks makes them nearly unkillable
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

umeu wrote:Cherokee is defo B
And comanche is B if not A. The tech boosts are cheaps and super good. 10% cav speed is awesome, especially on sioux. 10% cav hp is great as well and 10% coin reduction is ok lategame, but not every tech has to be awesome.

Huron is great on water. Nootka, mapuche and maya are great for nat rush timings to bring down an ff or a slow age. Nootka is awesome for france too in some mu's, and seminole is op for brits, japan, age2 iro and sioux

The main problem with nats imo is the nat token, making scouting useless. I often wait until the last minutw before finishing it, but this is undesirable if you need 2 posts and theyre far apart (like on high plains).

That brings me to problem 2, nat post location and combo. Often either the location of the post is terribad, or the combo sux. That alone would be a major boost.

Then finally, the nat alliance card should be buffed, the nilla strength was ok for the card i think.

Then finally, nat embassy can be made cheaper, and some techs or unit costs can be tweaked, but not much is needed imo.


Remember that I want to use the units and my own ratings are clearly biased by that so the ratings probably are off. Comanche only maps make me sad as a native user. Yes Comanche techs are good but their units are absolute dog poo. No matter how bad your anti cav is you don't want to resort to using Comanche. Also even with these awesome techs they still didn't get used so it's clearly not enough of an enticement. As for Seminole it costs 500 wood and 300 coin in total to get that 25% upgrade. It is good yes, but you can't just throw 800 resources at something willy nilly.

Nootka and Mapuche don't even really counter anything, they certainly won't guard artillery or skirms from enemy cavalry with their low damage and multipliers. Even if they were situationally good for France (which they aren't because you've got better things to spend your cards on) you still need the map control on top of that. They have that early age 2 niche which oh yeah is spotted thanks to native tp symbol. Even if it wasn't it's not difficult to stop unless you REALLY get caught out. Maya are (really) bad pikes and their siege is nowhere near as high as it looks because they attack every 4 seconds instead of every 3. Yes, more useless knowledge that does nothing for my gameplay :lol:.

Nat techs are usefulish in long drawn out games for certain civs but again, this doesn't come into play very often and the units themselves are mostly dog poo. Most of the time they are a map decoration. You could count the amount of times minor natives got taken in the New World Tournament on one hand and I'm fairly certain you could count the number of minor native units that got used on a hand with no fingers.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

dansil92 wrote:@deleted_user why do you not mention seminole for aztec? Mace and Erks and arrow knights even are archers... 10 attack mace in colonial is pretty powerful and an extra 25% erks makes them nearly unkillable


Just forgot about mace. Arrow knights arent often used, so its not that relevant, but ye good point.
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Re: The Minor Native Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Peachrocks wrote:Cheyenne for example are really good if the game goes mid to late but the units themselves have a very high wood cost which sure can be mitigated by stagecoach and the like but how many games on High Plains in New World Tournament actually got Cheyenne techs let alone used their units?

As I said previously, this doesn't mean that natives aren't viable.
Most of the top 8 players don't know what the natives do, and we don't have the habit to build native TP, thus we don't do it, even when we should. Cheyennes are really good, especially thanks to their bison tech, but High Plains has so much food that you often don't need it. On Iowa however, I'd get the bisons every game.

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