The Minor Native Thread

[deleted_user0]

Iowa is lakota, which is even better than cheyenne lol.

[I_HaRRiiSoN_I]

A start for buffing units would be reduce wood cost (or coin) by -5wood (or -10% wood) and increase build limit by 25% or 50%. I dont see this being to controversial.

[zoom]

I think the focal point should be buffing completely unviable improvements and units. It's fine if natives remain situational, it's just, all of them should be viable, at some point, or in some cases.

Some of these ratings seem off, to me, too.

...

Speaking from my personal preference, the fact people don't know what natives do and aren't ever punished for it more or less reinforces just how useless they are. I know what they all do off the top of my head and that knowledge almost never comes into play.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. I just don't agree that most of them need big changes. Most of them need small ones.

Buffing build-limits, across the board, might make sense, though. In my experience, it's often a prohibiting factor.

[Interjection]

I agree unit costs should be looked at but I don't think it's as simple as a percentage change in cost. There is a lot of variance in wood cost e.g., chenne riders cost 110w and Nootka clubs cost 15w. It would have to be done properly, units effectiveness made into a tier list then cost in vil seconds calculated out or something like that. Honestly, a rebalance would require an incredible amount of staffing to do properly.

Ideas I like
Not saying they should all be implemented or something like that. I just liked the ideas and thought they were thematically appropriate or would make nats more interesting.

-Nat icon doesn't show up when the village is built
-Native embassy significantly reduced in cost e.g., 50w
-Free nat scout upon allying with each native.
-Native scouts trainable from all natives.
-Allied native villages supply a ton of LOS similar to a dock or TC
-Summar palace style unit production
-Native minutemen / big button that can be called out of the native village.
-Nat village has ranged attack like outpost
-Can garrison vils in native village trading post. These 3 could make their weird positions on the map an advantage and something you build when collecting resources far away from home

[Riotcoke]

I agree unit costs should be looked at but I don't think it's as simple as a percentage change in cost. There is a lot of variance in wood cost e.g., chenne riders cost 110w and Nootka clubs cost 15w. It would have to be done properly, units effectiveness made into a tier list then cost in vil seconds calculated out or something like that. Honestly, a rebalance would require an incredible amount of staffing to do properly.

Ideas I like
Not saying they should all be implemented or something like that. I just liked the ideas and thought they were thematically appropriate or would make nats more interesting.

-Nat icon doesn't show up when the village is built
-Native embassy significantly reduced in cost e.g., 50w
-Free nat scout upon allying with each native.
-Native scouts trainable from all natives.
-Allied native villages supply a ton of LOS similar to a dock or TC
-Summar palace style unit production
-Native minutemen / big button that can be called out of the native village.
-Nat village has ranged attack like outpost
-Can garrison vils in native village trading post. These 3 could make their weird positions on the map an advantage and something you build when collecting resources far away from home

Some good ideas, however a few problems with these. Having it like the summer palace would either be dreadful, i.e it would be so slow that by the time it pays off those few units are sort of useless, or hideously op with, assuming you make it the same the summer palace for china, would see roughly 4 vills worth of vs for 200 wood, making every civ have a huge buff to early eco. I really like the LOS change though.

[Peachrocks]

I think the focal point should be buffing completely unviable improvements and units. It's fine if natives remain situational, it's just, all of them should be viable, at some point, or in some cases.

Some of these ratings seem off, to me, too.

...

Speaking from my personal preference, the fact people don't know what natives do and aren't ever punished for it more or less reinforces just how useless they are. I know what they all do off the top of my head and that knowledge almost never comes into play.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. I just don't agree that most of them need big changes. Most of them need small ones.

Buffing build-limits, across the board, might make sense, though. In my experience, it's often a prohibiting factor.

For certain. General buffs are a start because all of them don't see play, even the ones with the techs people are talking about that are good, it's so rare to see a relevant native trade post.

As for unit changes themselves it depends on how you define 'small' . Everything is relative, though I'd much rather small changes then massive ones anyway even if the belief would be 'nope they still suck'. More or less just comparing some of them to their counterparts and making them either have a unique niche, ability or actually useful and not straight up much worse as often is the case. For example, Navajo are 5 speed skirmishers with stealth but they have really mediocre other stats per cost. That could be potentially dangerous doing anything to major with but it's an example of a 'niche' or unique attribute.

The idea of the Summer Palace style thing was to make them worth fighting for and make them more similar to a trade route TP but I honestly believe that could be too tricky to manage, despite it sounding fun. Also in my time with the fan patch there were loads of ideas I floated with the person who modded it at the time and some of those things on that list were definitely not possible back then.

[[Armag] diarouga]

How about we just play aoe3?
If you think that aoe3 is a bad game, you're free to play aoe2, Warcraft3 or Starcraft2, you don't have to ruin the fun for other people because you want random changes.
You can also play WOL or NE if you're too lazy to learn a new game. Oh, and there is the Smackdown patch.

[scarm]

What diarouga is saying. I am a "Timmy" kind of player generally speaking (at least if thats the creative type that wants to try new stuff and make it viable), which means i would therefore love new content. But honestly there is enough new content out there in form of mods, and at low and even intermediate level you can easily get away with cheesy strats involving Natives, Tashunkes Prowlers and what not. Do we really need to see them in high level play? Even there, stuff like Kaisers Mercstrat and Tabbens Revolution occasionally proves successful.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Kaiser's merc strat is definitely viable, and revolution is viable in some MUs as well.
Honestly, natives are probably viable too, people just don't try to go for them.

[n0el]

The problem is native is that people mostly use them to rush, but you if you do that you generally are already at a massive disadvantage because your opponent knows without scouting. All they have to do is be safe. The native meta would need to develop into supplemental army or eco, but that’s tough because mostly they are food-wood based while most armies are f-c.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The problem is native is that people mostly use them to rush, but you if you do that you generally are already at a massive disadvantage because your opponent knows without scouting. All they have to do is be safe. The native meta would need to develop into supplemental army or eco, but that’s tough because mostly they are food-wood based while most armies are f-c.

As people said previously, they're great when you run out of coin. Going native is surely better than transitioning into plantations.
On nilla, the late game meta used to be bow/pike/lakotas lol.

[n0el]

ya, and the techs are usually good. you can get crates or gathering or animals.

[[Armag] diarouga]

ya, and the techs are usually good. you can get crates or gathering or animals.

Even unit upgrades.

[Djigit]

Comanche Trade Language technology is really garbage. It's a shame because it would add a nice twist to supremacy games on HP and Colorado.

[n0el]

I would really like DE to spice up the natives a bit.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Making techs cheaper or better could be nice, buffing units would be lame imo.

[dansil92]

its honestly the build limit that is so prohibitive. Like rattan or sufi or cheyenne make a better cav than coyote runners or even kanya but you are so limited (isnt it like 6 for sufi???) That it becomes completely invalid to invest in a tradepost. Like logistically, you want more wood heavy units? Gotta spend 200 MORE wood just for another 6.

In my mind rattan, cherokee, inca apache and tupi are generally the setlements i would get for the units as they are affordable and the units are decent and have reasonable build limits, but it is still fairly prohibitive.

A potential solution could be the build limit is no population, then after the build limit they start to cost pop.

Most of the units arent terrible, some are very powerful and some make a great ways to make up for civ weaknesses (tiger claws as aztec or iro?), and some are easier to macro for (such as adding huaminca to a yumi composition) or some are special in their unit behaviors (most of asian ones, but also navajo, bolas, and cheyenne fury upgrade) that can make them an unusual way to counter a unit type.
As another example chakrams can help brits handle heavy infantry, without committing to grens. They are more cost effective, can have longer range, and have a multiplier against heavy infantry- putting them far ahead of grens as a unit, though at the cost of much lower siege. They have a few nice upgrades at the settlement as well.

Another example is tiger claws for iro. Tiger claws are boosted by all 3 of the iro infantry cards as well as native combat and warchief aura, making them both more cost effective than kanya, and more upgradeable.

Jesuit makes a nice compliment to macehualtin in colonial for aztec, reducing the troubles caused by puma (melee, siege tag, awkward macro, etc) and can be pretty powerful if used well with coyote.

These are just a few examples but i think the biggest trouble is many of the tournament players have very tight, specific build orders that are civ specific. Its hard to use a unit you dont even know the cost of or stats of, even if it is exactly the unit you need to round out a composition or counter an opponent.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I'm fine with the build limit being increased too.

[zoom]

I would really like DE to spice up the natives a bit.

Didn't you use to be anti-change? In fact, I think you are, now. It is a welcome sight, nevertheless.

[Amsel_]

I think my problem is that I see those villages and think "That's a whole civilization!" And it seems natural that natives would provide economic and military benefits, and spice the game up in general. But when you play, or watch people play, those "civilization's" biggest contribution to most games is being a literal waste of space that makes walling cheaper.

[n0el]

I would really like DE to spice up the natives a bit.

Didn't you use to be anti-change? In fact, I think you are, now. It is a welcome sight, nevertheless.

What? I’m one the most pro change people here.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I would really like DE to spice up the natives a bit.

Didn't you use to be anti-change? In fact, I think you are, now. It is a welcome sight, nevertheless.

What? I’m one the most pro change people here.

Pro fixed crate

[n0el]

I’d fix a lot of things but crates are a no brainer.

[dansil92]

The trouble with fixed crates is you pick between giving say... Germany 100 or 200 wood every time. Basically cementing which builds you do every time making another aoe2 clone of perfectly rigid builds

[n0el]

Don’t talk about that here.